Israel's Looking...

[Raptured Spleen]

...to "settle the score".

Does anyone not see the hand of Uncle Sam pulling Israel's strings here?!

It's not about the prospect of Iranian nukes, People; it's all about the Iranian pipeline and its government's invitation to various nations around the globe to trade in euros instead of the horribly de-valued dollar (and FYI: that euro v. dollar thing was the real reason Saddam Hussein ended up swinging Texas-style, if you know what I mean).

Hey, maybe now would be a good time for Israel to use some of those bunker busters Obama tried to sneak by under the table a few years back! You know, one could just happen to go a little off course and accidentally demolish Iran's shiny new pipeline. Best hope it looks like an accident to China though, 'cuz word has it they like the idea of oily euros.

I'm just gonna say it: Israel is little more than a thinly veiled military outpost for the United States. I say "little more" because Israel's status as a 'sovereign nation' allows the US to don its soldiers and equipment like Halloween costumes in order to carry out the kind of work that can't be done openly as the USA.

Case in point: the shizznit that's getting ready to go down between Israel and Iran.

Question: is the issue of Iran's nuclear ambitions just a shallow pretense to enable the US (via Israel) to get at some deeper (yes, underlying) issue?

[arielmessenger]

I think the OP has it backwards - the US is not pulling Israel's strings, it's the other way around. AIPAC, the America - Israel Political Action Committee, has enough money flowing into American election campaign coffers to ensure there will never be a voice against Israel is American politics. Israel is America's dominatrix and America has forgotten the safe word. The US is not Israel's Blackwater nor is it the other way around.

The fact is, of course, that the US supports Israel because the overwhelming majority of the citizens of the US support Israel. This is true of the members of both political parties and of Independents too. Attributing US support for Israel to the nefarious and all-powerful "Jewish Lobby" is a tired old canard that has never held any water.

Spoken like a true Jewish convert, norm. But your reasoning sucks because you don't seem to understand that Jewish control of American media and communications with just about any movie or TV drama with Arabs in will be linked to terrorism. Americans are now conditioned to associate terrorism with Arabic music.

Recall the bombing of the USS Liberty, a communications monitoring ship, where during the Seven Days' War, Israel was afraid that the US would tell Syria about the buildup of Israeli forces on Syria's border, so after flying over the ship all day, knowing full well that it was American, they bombed it and later claimed that it was a mistake. The US swallowed this line and let Israel get away with everything.

Sorry, but citing the USS Liberty is a dead giveaway to the kind of websites you visit and the kind of "information" you swallow whole. If you only read anti-Israel propaganda, it's not surprising that you would come to these conclusions. The record is mixed, and there are unanswered questions, to be sure; but in any case, the USS Liberty incident has been a dead issue for almost 50 years. Whether a misguided deliberate attack or a pure error in the fog of battle (which is much more likely), the incident is long since over, with reparations and damages paid in the tens of millions and both governments remaining allies. Only rabid "anti-Zionist" activists much care about it today.

In other words, don't think about it. And never think about 9/11 or the fact that the Jewish owner of the WTC buildings was caught telling the world they had to "pull" the buildings, i.e. the controlled demolition buzz word for bringing a building down. Building 7 had utterly no cause for its complete destruction and thermite traces needed to blow the steel structure joints apart have been found. In other words, the MOST HIDEOUS INSIDE ATTACK of America was orchestrated by Israel with U.S. connivance. Norm, show us the proof this is not true. And sorry, the gov't reports are not being accepted by now the list is up to 1500 U.S. engineers and architects.
Check the mastheads of newpapers and the management of American media - much of the ownership is either Jewish or pro-Zionist, so you never hear a dissenting opinion from the AIPAC party line. Several of the most frequently used news agencies have been owned by the Rothschild family, which invented the modern state of Israel. They recently sold Reuters to the Murdoch organization, which is also pro-Zionist.

And followed, of course, by the old "Jews control the media" and the "Rothschild boogeyman" myths. Yeah, yeah. The evil Jewish conspiracy, we rule the world from behind the scenes, yadda yadda yadda.

Phfft.

You want to talk about overwhelming support for Israel in the US, you might want to take a look at conservative and evangelical Christian churches. Last time I looked, they were neither funded nor run by Jews.

Last time I looked, conservative Evangelicals did not have the political clout or numbers to influence American politics like they do now and why is that? Because they've teamed up with Zionist Jews who themselves have become far more conservative than previously. The whole American political scene has shifted to the Right because of overwhelming conservative ownership, mostly Jewish, of American media which tells Americans how to think and vote by controlling what news they hear, e.g. Palestinian reports are routinely ignored in American press.

But feel free to [strike]expose[/strike] reveal your "sources" for this information; links, books, newsletters, whatever. I'm sure they'll be MOST compelling.

As for the rest, I don't see Israel or Jews mentioned. Odd, that, considering what came before.

Not worth pursuing. Have a nice day.

Norm, are you mad because you've joined a religious army and didn't know it?
I've had decades of experience now with Jewish religion and religionists and can tell you that they are the very first ones to try to stop any meaningful discussion of Judaism. And why is that, norm? Well, as a bonified legal Jew as opposed to you, the Jewish convert, I long ago made the decision to reject Judaism as a racist religion, one having no moral place in modern society. Indeed, Jews trying to inflict their racist religion on the world via Israel have become the root cause of all instability in the Middle East. I was nearly banned after you asked me to post my opinions about your adopted religion when I went on the Jewish boards to ask about the Celestial Torah. It's telling that that topic is now in the Trash Can and why is that? Why can't members here discuss Judaism's quite unspiritual aspects such as "fences around the Torah"? I'll tell you why. Because such a discussion would lead to this conclusion:



and this:



this:



and finally this:



"Moses received the Torah at Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua, Joshua to the elders, and the elders to the prophets, and the prophets to the men of the Great Synagogue.

"The latter used to say...make a fence round the Torah."

This is why Judaism is dangerous in modern times. Every Abrahamic religion is ultimately defined in our world by its fundamentalist members and the fundamentalist Jewish mindset is a racist one which is why Israel is building settlements "For Jews Only". This type of racist division if done in America or in ANY European nation would instantly be condemned for what it is, racist ideology put into social practice in the modern world.

I thank God for showing me the true Celestial Torah which is under no Jewish control at all.




[/img]

[otseng]

I've had decades of experience now with Jewish religion and religionists and can tell you that they are the very first ones to try to stop any meaningful discussion of Judaism. And why is that, norm? Well, as a bonified legal Jew as opposed to you, the Jewish convert, I long ago made the decision to reject Judaism as a racist religion, one having no moral place in modern society.

Moderator Comment

If you wish to have any meaningful discussions here on any religion, it's best to drop the "racist" label. Just present your evidence without using the inflammatory descriptions.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster.

[amptramp]

Just to add to arielmessenger's photo story, one of his pictures did not come out.



Very powerful images.

I was asked to provide a source for the idea of Jewish media control. Straight from the horse's aperture:

"We [the Zionists] have it all under such control that no one -- no one or no-body can [reach] people unless it is done through our media control. (Who has had control of the mass media in the 20th century? -- Chairman of ABC pp Leonard Goldenson, President of CBS -- James H. Rosenfield, Chairman of RCS -- David Sarnoff, Chief Executive of NBC -- Fred Silverman, President of PBS -- Lawrence Grossman, Chairman of Time -- Arthur Heiskell, Editor of U.S. News & World Report -- Marvin Stone, Chief Executive of Dow Jones -- Warren H. Phillips, Editor of Newsweek -- Lester Bernstein, President of TV Guide -- Walter Annenberg, President of New York Times -- Sulzberger family, TV program producer -- Norman Lear -- these and more all are Jews!) We have it sewed up!"
- Harold Wallace Rosenthal from the Harold Wallace Rosenthal Interview 1976 -

[cnorman18]

Just to add to arielmessenger's photo story, one of his pictures did not come out.



Very powerful images.

I was asked to provide a source for the idea of Jewish media control. Straight from the horse's aperture:

"We [the Zionists] have it all under such control that no one -- no one or no-body can [reach] people unless it is done through our media control. (Who has had control of the mass media in the 20th century? -- Chairman of ABC pp Leonard Goldenson, President of CBS -- James H. Rosenfield, Chairman of RCS -- David Sarnoff, Chief Executive of NBC -- Fred Silverman, President of PBS -- Lawrence Grossman, Chairman of Time -- Arthur Heiskell, Editor of U.S. News & World Report -- Marvin Stone, Chief Executive of Dow Jones -- Warren H. Phillips, Editor of Newsweek -- Lester Bernstein, President of TV Guide -- Walter Annenberg, President of New York Times -- Sulzberger family, TV program producer -- Norman Lear -- these and more all are Jews!) We have it sewed up!"
- Harold Wallace Rosenthal from the Harold Wallace Rosenthal Interview 1976 -

What is your source for that quote? A simple and routine question. Give a link or reference, please, where it can be verified.

And try to find a source that doesn't also endorse The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic, if you can.

[cnorman18]

arielmessenger,

Believe me, I too am disappointed that our thread disappeared. The two last posts included, among other things, the following material from a thread some years back:

----

The claim that the area that is now Israel proper was obtained by force alone is bogus.

in 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left (many in fear of retaliation by their own brethren, the Arabs), without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The ones who stayed were afforded the same peace, civility, and citizenship rights as everyone else.

This is verified by multiple reports and editorials in Arab newspapers of the time. You like to quote sources? Here are some -- Arab sources:

From here:

Arab Leaders Provoke Exodus

A plethora of evidence exists demonstrating that Palestinians were encouraged to leave their homes to make way for the invading Arab armies. The U.S. ConsulGeneral in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that local muftidominated Arab leaders were urging all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so.

The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.

Time's report of the battle for Haifa (May 3, 1948) was similar: The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city....By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.

Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants treacherously acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments. He concluded, There can be no exaggerating the importance of these arly Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual
exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 590).

The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts (Morris, Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986). Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of several dozenvillages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more in April-July 1948. The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, MA: Cambridge University Press, 2004, p. 592).

Morris also said that in early May units of the Arab Legion reportedly ordered the evacuation of all women and children from the town of Beisan. The Arab Liberation Army was also reported to have ordered the evacuation of another village south of Haifa. The departure of the women and children, Morris says, tended to sap the morale of the menfolk who were left behind to guard the homes and fields, contributing ultimately to the final evacuation of villages. Such two-tier evacuation-women and children first, the men following weeks later-occurred in Qumiya in the Jezreel Valley, among the Awarna bedouin in Haifa Bay and in various other places.

Who gave such orders? Leaders like Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country.

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 194849, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two, Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada alJanub (August 16, 1948). Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem.

The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, according to the Jordanian newspaper Filastin (February 19, 1949).

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade, said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

Even Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:
The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.

A few more salient points:

There are Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel today, and have been from the beginning of the nation and before. Few Arabs were forced to leave, and this is proven by the simple fact that so many of them chose to stay and are still there.

20% of the present-day population of Israel is Arab, and that percentage is growing; if the Israelis are engaging in "ethnic cleansing," it isn't going very well, now is it?

And speaking of "ethnic cleansing" -- once there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and the various emirates. Today there are virtually none. Further, the Palestinians demand that any future Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza be, as I said, Judenrein -- "Jew-free." Why doesn't all that provoke your outrage against "ethnic cleansing"?

At one time, Jews and Arabs and Muslims lived together as neighbors. War is not inevitable here, and one side desiring the extinction of the other, which is the openly stated position of the terrorists, is not a route back to that time. The approach of Israel, a famously multicultural and pluralistic free and democratic society where Arab and Muslim citizens live in peace alongside their Jewish neighbors, is.

The oft-repeated allegation that the Israelis stole Palestinian land is also bogus:

Look here, here, and here; Note this:

1. As far back as 1893, the Jews not only were already far from being a small minority in the areas where they had settled, but were the largest single group there (if one divides the non-Jewish population into Muslim and Christian), and

2. Substantial immigration of Arabs to Palestine took place during the first half of the twentieth century; from 1893 to 1947 while the Palestinian Arab population slightly more than doubled in areas where no Jews were settled, it quintupled in the main areas of Jewish settlement.

Look here, too. Note the chart on this page; at the time of the armistice in 1949, 8.54% of Israel was owned by either the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association, the Jewish National Fund, or Jewish individuals. Less than half that, 3.96%, was owned by Arab individuals. The rest was state land, which was transferred from the Arab government to the new Israeli government by UN mandate.

The idea that Israel was stolen from the Arabs is, simply put, a myth; and the proof of that, as I keep saying without response or acknowledgment, is that very many Arabs did not leave during the War of Independence; they remained in Israel, were left in peace, and they and their descendants live in Israel today. Arabs in Israel own land, do business, vote, serve in the Knesset, worship freely, and live as full, peaceful and participatory citizens of their nation. Other than Tunisia and Morocco, are there Jews in Arab countries who can say that? Will there be Jews who may do that in the Judenrein Palestinian state?

The Palestine to which the European Jews of the First Aliyah immigrated was vastly underpopulated, and the land onto which the Jews moved was, in fact, bought primarily from absentee landlords and real estate speculators. The land was not empty, but the areas where the Jews bought (not stole) land largely was, and very few Arabs indeed, if any, were displaced. David Ben-Gurion, former Prime Minister of Israel, instructed the Jewish refugees never to buy land belonging to local fellahs or worked by them.

In many places, Arabs and Jews worked the land side by side; in fact, one reason that the Arab population of what is now Israel expanded AFTER the Jews began to move in was that the Jews, in developing the land and building towns and infrastructure, provided jobs and a higher standard of living for the Arabs of the region; there was more water, better medical care, and better sanitation, all of which was introduced by the Jews from Europe. In other words, most of the Arabs in what is now Israel were immigrants too, who moved there at about the same time and actually worked for the Jewish owners of the land!

Moreover, the inhabitants of the land who WERE there when the Jews came were not only Arabs; the local population, sparse as it was, was also made up of Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Kurds, Germans, Persians, Sudanese, Samaritans, Tatars, Georgians, many people of mixed ethnicity -- and Jews. There were ancient Jewish communities in Jerusalem, Safed, Hebron, and many other places in Palestine -- villages where Jews had lived since Roman times.

The idea that the Palestinians had lived there for thousands of years, and that the Jews displaced people who had lived there for centuries, are simply -- shall we say -- hugely exaggerated, and to a very large extent simply false. This isnt Zionist fantasy; its historical fact, established by demographic studies and writings of the time.

The usual narrative that is assumed to be true when criticism of Israel appears -- that Palestine, empty of Jews and filled with happy, peaceful Palestinians, was suddenly and violently invaded in 1948 by European Jews who massacred them, stole their land, and established a nation based on apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and military aggression -- is not even a caricature; it is an antisemitic cartoon with no relation to the truth at all. Jews had ALWAYS lived in Palestine; Jews were BUYING land, legally and from legal Arab landowners, from 1882 and earlier; and whereas SOME Palestinians WERE driven off their land by force, virtually all of that happened during the War of Independence, which took place AFTER partition. The beginnings of Israel had nothing whatever to do with stolen land or foreign invaders. It had to do with peaceful immigrants, purchasing land legally and working it with their own hands.

The idea that the Israelis brutally invaded Palestine, murdered thousands of Arabs, and drove them off their ancestral lands is simply untrue. Further, it is a FACT that the Arab refugees who left Israel were welcome to return in 1948. Thats a matter of record, and the reasons it didnt happen are not the fault of the Israelis.

From Resolution 194 of the United Nations General Assembly, passed on December 11, 1948, before the end of the War of Independence: Notice the portion marked in boldface.

Article 11 reads:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

The Arab nations initially opposed this resolution, and few Arabs took the offer, specifically because of the refusal of the nations which attacked Israel to accept peace. Any Arabs who wanted to come home at the very beginning could have done so. Claiming that the right of return should extend two generations into the future, when a few hundred thousand refugees -- carefully and deliberately made to remain refugees for 62 years, unlike any refugees in human history anywhere in the world -- have multiplied into millions, and still have no intention of living in peace with their neighbours, is beyond ridiculous, no matter how heavily that idea is promoted in the Arab world.

I would point out, too, that like others who fulminate and fume about the evils of Israel, you apparently do not acknowledge that there is such a thing as Palestinian terrorism. The daily -- yes, DAILY -- attacks and attempted attacks on Israeli civilians -- not the Israeli Army, their avowed enemies, but women and children in discotheques, pizzerias, family meals and religious services and on school buses -- are of no account at all, or are justified by "crimes" that did NOT happen more than half a century before these victims were even born.

Now, is there something beyond the Palestinian claim, which is largely myth -- see above -- that the Israelis stole their land?

I think much of the explanation for that hatred lies in the vicious anti-Semitism, as in old-school Nazi hatemongering, that is fed to Palestinians from the cradle. The Blood Libel is widely accepted as fact in the Arab world, and is deliberately promoted in the Arab media. Jews were portrayed committing ritual murder of Muslim children on Arab television, and that program got enormous ratings all over the Arab world. The most vicious and ugly caricatures and stereotypes of Jews are routinely exhibited in Arab newspapers and magazines. That notorious and wholly evil forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, is still a bestseller among Arabs and held to be genuine; during the infamous Durban UN conference on racism, it was being promoted and sold openly. Muslims are regularly taught by their religious leaders that Jews are the descendants of dogs, pigs and apes, and that those who murder Jewish women and children are martyrs and courageous heroes.

How could the Palestinians NOT hate Jews? They have been taught from birth that hating Jews is their religious and cultural duty.

The 9/11 -- er, "nonsense" -- I'll leave to others; these ludicrous claims have been conclusively debunked, over and over, for years now -- and the claim that "the Jews were behind it" is now found only on antisemitic websites and books.

I think I'll also leave your ludicrous -- and hate-filled -- claims about the nature of the Jewish religion unanswered, since (1) I've already dealt with them at length and (2) you have never give a source for those claims other than your own blatant prejudice and "mystic visions." Your own claimed status as a born Jew does not validate nonsense, and your continuing to denigrate me as being of lesser status because I am a convert only proves how little you know of actual Jewish tradition and teaching.

I suppose it's worth noting that your photos -- carefully selected, and of course with no reference whatever to terrorism -- were taken from the Photobucket account of a former member who was, like so many others, banned for (among other things) promoting antisemitic hatred and repeatedly making unsupported claims, rather like the claims you are making here.

Have a LOVELY day. If you'd care to reply, please do so with facts and references, and not with your own unsupported myths, stereotypes and "visions" and nothing more. If you can.

[arielmessenger]

Not to worry, norm! Protection of the racist religion of Judaism extends across the internet religious forums. Oteng is the Christian overseerer here protecting his type of Pauline Christianity which never questions Jewish beliefs, just accepts them these days while joining with Zionism in overturning morality to serve the Jewish Cause, separation from Gentiles and in Israel, control over all of the Middle East.

Christians have been made into political pawns of Israel, Oteng, and by doing so, have lost Christian morality that doesn't discriminate between Jews and Arabs. Norm, is of course, the born-again convert who now has too much ego invested in his choice of religions to back off and actually look at the real history of Palestine which I brought to him via a real Palestinian professor keeping track of the actual history vs. the Zionist propaganda that begins with the utter lie that "there are no Palestinians. They are just homeless Arabs from Jordan, Syria, Lebanon" and goes on from there to even make excuses for the crimes against humanity done by Israelis with America's blessing.

I want a true Separation of Church and State and not this pollution of our Constitution by Zionists who have successfully gotten Americans to forget that part of the Constitution lest it be applied to the Jewish religious enterprise of establishing a Jewish State. I want Christians to start acting like Christians and stop supporting Judaism's racist settlement projects. And yes, I will call it racist because that is exactly what it is. Only Jewish success in blinding American eyes to morality stops Americans from seeing the obvious racist element in Israeli settlement building.

I expect banning as truth about Judaism and Pauline Christianity cannot be discussed freely on any internet religious talkboards I've found. They all have Christians or Jews or even atheists at the helm all willing to protect religious beliefs in order to keep members from being offended no matter how disgusting those religious beliefs are when put into real world practice, e.g.
"Fences around the Torah".

[cnorman18]

Protection? You can post whatever you want here. You have. I see no references, no facts, no rebuttals or responses to the facts I'VE posted. You haven't even tried. You'll get banned, if you do, because you won't substantiate your claims, you won't refrain from posting gross, pointless insults, and you won't engage in actual debate -- just blatant propaganda full of stereotype and myth. What's to protect from? There's nothing here that could threaten anybody.

Predictably enough, once again, here you present no rebuttals to historical facts, no actual, factual arguments, nothing at all -- just stamping your widdle foot and insisting, without any evidence or reason whatever, that you hold The Truth -- like so many who have come before, of so many diverse and bizarre kinds.

They come, they go. We're still here.

'Bye. You have convinced no one.

[arielmessenger]

Norm, what more do you need to make a moral judgment about the religious practices of the religion you've adopted? You ask for what? A history of Palestine? I gave you links to that from Mazim Qumsiyeh and can do it again but it didn't register the first time and won't the second because you HAVE to defend your new religion and don't want to look at its underbelly activities, even though your own ex-President told you that these Israeli Jews are practicing APARTHEID policies which is RACISM. All those Jewish settlements and not a one of them open to Arab Palestinians, i.e. steal the land of Palestine and kill anyone who resists, the M.O. of fascist aggression and occupation of a land not your own.

Look at these pictures and ask yourself why you have allowed Judaism to create these structures of oppression in our world, the same oppressive structure that was the Berlin Wall, and the Great Wall of China, all of them created to keep citizenry from intermingling with the Foreign Devils, i.e. those wanting Democracy instead of religious oligarchies. You said so yourself that the Orthodox run Israel and the Orthodox Jews are practicing Judaism far closer than you in all likelihood. Racism is at the heart of Orthodox Judaism. "Pharisees" meant "The Separate Ones" which is why no Christian Jew can remain a Jew and still be Christian. You can't serve two masters at the same time and either you serve Humanity or you serve the Jewish Cult. You serve the Cult and forgo Humanity every time you give Israel a pass on morality.


and this:



this:



and finally this:



"Moses received the Torah at Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua, Joshua to the elders, and the elders to the prophets, and the prophets to the men of the Great Synagogue.

"The latter used to say...make a fence round the Torah."


[/img][/quote]

[cnorman18]

Do you think I've never encountered this sort of thing before, on this and other forums? It's pretty routine around here, and the list of those who have tried (unsuccessfully) to sell propaganda like yours is a long one. Like I said: they come, they go.

Your post, predictably again, reads as if I have posted nothing at all. Again like I said; no rebuttal to actual facts, nothing but propaganda (e.g. Mazim Qumsiyeh, a thoroughly discredited propagandist). There are, let's see, seven links in my last, and I have seen nothing from you -- nothing at all -- in response to any of them, nor to any of the well-documented and reasonable statements I have made (That's pretty routine too.) Once more, like I said; stamping your foot. Mere claims and links to equally distorted polemic won't get you there, and I (and others on this forum) have seen this sort of thing before, many, many times. Not impressed.

Amused, maybe, that you can still pretend to be so authoritative and correct, but can't respond to a single point that I've made and choose to ignore them instead. The silence is deafening as well as probative -- and pretty funny, considering your posturing here.

A few corrections to your last diatribe:

Jimmy Carter has apologized for "stigmatizing" Israel.

Much of my last-but-one post had to do with the false claims about Israel "stealing the land of Palestine." That's a myth. It never happened, as I documented pretty extensively -- with not a hint of response or rebuttal from you, as I've pointed out several times now. Of course, no response IS a response; it says, "I don't have one."

Also: I never said that "the Orthodox run Israel," as you falsely claim here. I said that the policies and practices of the Israeli government are not determined by religion, and that even the Orthodox have no control over anything other than "religious matters," defined as marriage, conversion and funerals. Modern liberal Judaism, my own branch, is virtually nonexistent in Israel and has no influence at all.

That some Orthodox Jews are racists I would not doubt nor deny; but neither I nor any other liberal Jew can be held responsible for anything that Orthodox Jews do, any more than the average Presbyterian or Anglican can be held responsible for the acts of the Westboro Baptists.

Christian Jews can certainly still self-identify as Jews, and many do; but they cannot be said to be practicing the Jewish religion, because they aren't. I have written on that extensively elsewhere.

As for the rest -- mere fulminating and trying to sell hatred and falsehood as fact, while carefully avoiding responding to any of my points or references.

You still haven't convinced anyone, and by not responding to MY points, you merely make it clear from where your allegations come: Ignorance, stereotype, myth, propaganda, and totally buying into the phony Palestinian narrative.

And the topper, that proves all this? Let me repeat it:

I would point out, too, that like others who fulminate and fume about the evils of Israel, you apparently do not acknowledge that there is such a thing as Palestinian terrorism. The daily -- yes, DAILY -- attacks and attempted attacks on Israeli civilians -- not the Israeli Army, their avowed enemies, but women and children in discotheques, pizzerias, family meals and religious services and on school buses -- are of no account at all, or are justified by "crimes" that did NOT happen more than half a century before these victims were even born.

You can always spot a pro-Palestinian extremist by the fact that Palestinian terrorism does not exist in their world. Neither does government- and religion-sponsored antisemitism in the Arab world, as I also mentioned:

I think much of the explanation for that hatred lies in the vicious anti-Semitism, as in old-school Nazi hatemongering, that is fed to Palestinians from the cradle. The Blood Libel is widely accepted as fact in the Arab world, and is deliberately promoted in the Arab media. Jews were portrayed committing ritual murder of Muslim children on Arab television, and that program got enormous ratings all over the Arab world. The most vicious and ugly caricatures and stereotypes of Jews are routinely exhibited in Arab newspapers and magazines. That notorious and wholly evil forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, is still a bestseller among Arabs and held to be genuine; during the infamous Durban UN conference on racism, it was being promoted and sold openly. Muslims are regularly taught by their religious leaders that Jews are the descendants of dogs, pigs and apes, and that those who murder Jewish women and children are martyrs and courageous heroes.

Both of these obviously relevant, nay, vital points will no doubt continue to be ignored in your next, if you have one.

For the record, I have also posted, and many times, that I (like the vast majority of American and non-Orthodox Israeli Jews) am AGAINST the illegal "settlements" and their expansion. I (and, again, most American and Israeli Jews) am in favor of a two-state solution, with an independent and peaceful Palestine, and also favor the evacuation of all Jews from the "settlements" (as has already happened in Gaza). You are trying to paint all Jews as intent on removing all Arabs and Muslims from Palestine and expanding into a "greater Israel," which is false -- all while ignoring the FACT that it is the public, on-the-record, and formally stated goal of all the Palestinian terror organizations to erase Israel from the map entirely and expel or exterminate every Jew in the Middle East -- the seriousness of those goals clearly proven by their continual efforts at mass murder of Israeli civilians.

You want to talk about racism and ethnic cleansing? About "giving a pass" on morality? Why won't you even acknowledge these very real and very FACTUAL issues, as opposed to continuing to spout unsupported propaganda and outright falsehoods?

And why do you feel compelled to link a POLITICAL problem with the modern Jewish religion, which has nothing to say on any of these matters?

Watch carefully, everyone; we will shortly be reading more of the same. No response to any of my points and references, other than mere denial; and more propaganda and unsupported claims.

[Suluby]

You manage to show the wall ..... but you don't show why Israel needs to defend her citizens against terrorism. Do you have a problem with a government protecting its citizens from terror attacks?



Posted on March 23, 2011
JERUSALEM (AP) " A bomb struck a crowded bus stop in central Jerusalem Wednesday, killing one woman and wounding more than 20 other people in what authorities said was the first major Palestinian militant attack in the city in several years.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/1-dead- ... mb-attack/




March 5, 2003: Sixteen people were killed and more than 30 wounded when a terrorist detonated a powerful bomb on a bus en route to Haifa University. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
http://www.adl.org/israel/israel_attacks.asp




Palestinian terrorism struck the Israeli port city of Haifa, murdering 20 people in a restaurant.
Five children were reported dead. Above, an Israeli child, clinging onto life, is rushed to hospital.



Police said the blast was set off by a suicide bomber, who had explosives strapped to his body.

October 4, 2003: Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing at the Maxim restaurant in Haifa killing 20 people and wounding more than 60.
http://www.adl.org/israel/israel_attacks.asp