A church spokeswoman lie

[The Ex-Mormon]

I found this at the Salt Lake Tribune :


Just Dew It: BYU students pushing for caffeinated colas

Soda » Mormon church statement prompts campaign to dump campus ban.

By Peggy Fletcher Stack

| The Salt Lake Tribune
First Published Sep 11 2012 05:06 pm • Last Updated Sep 12 2012 07:12 am

Caffeine-craving Brigham Young University students are pushing the LDS Church-owned school to change its stance on cola drinks.
The move was triggered by Aug. 30 statements from BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins in which she said that the school doesn’t serve or sell caffeinated drinks because there has not "been a demand for it."
The ban on caffeinated sodas is "not a university or church decision," Jenkins told The Salt Lake Tribune then, "but made by dining services, based on what our customers want." Source: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54875 ... d.html.csp

This is " a lie! Coke was and is forbidden in Europe at events of the church. We shall drink mineral water water or sweet lemonade; Fruit juices or Fruit teas. It is a rule at least for Europe which has "legal force". Whoever drinks Coke does not get a temple recommend and no patriarchal blessing. And of course he cannot make any career in the church either.

[dianaiad]

I found this at the Salt Lake Tribune :


Just Dew It: BYU students pushing for caffeinated colas

Soda » Mormon church statement prompts campaign to dump campus ban.

By Peggy Fletcher Stack

| The Salt Lake Tribune
First Published Sep 11 2012 05:06 pm • Last Updated Sep 12 2012 07:12 am

Caffeine-craving Brigham Young University students are pushing the LDS Church-owned school to change its stance on cola drinks.
The move was triggered by Aug. 30 statements from BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins in which she said that the school doesn’t serve or sell caffeinated drinks because there has not "been a demand for it."
The ban on caffeinated sodas is "not a university or church decision," Jenkins told The Salt Lake Tribune then, "but made by dining services, based on what our customers want." Source: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54875 ... d.html.csp

This is " a lie! Coke was and is forbidden in Europe at events of the church. We shall drink mineral water water or sweet lemonade; Fruit juices or Fruit teas. It is a rule at least for Europe which has "legal force". Whoever drinks Coke does not get a temple recommend and no patriarchal blessing. And of course he cannot make any career in the church either.

I'm sorry, this is simply false. Nobody is asked if they drink Coca Cola or caffienated drinks in a Temple Recommend interview. We are asked not to drink coffee or tea. Many members, who want to try to figure out WHY we aren't supposed to drink coffee or tea, figure it's about the caffeine.

It's not. For one thing, drinking de-caffienated coffee is just as against the rules as drinking the fully caffeinated kind. The reason we don't drink coffee or tea is because...we promised not to drink coffee or tea. Coca Cola is neither coffee nor tea, and believe me, a diet coke is not going to keep you from getting a Temple Recommend.

More and more you are making me wonder about your claim of membership.

[dianaiad]

The "Word of Wisdom"?
Do you know that most people are just in Utah with overweight? Why? Because the members do not hold on to the WoW. I have lived some time in Idaho. And it was forbidden to the members there to drink Coke. Whoever did it anyway did not get any patriarchal blessing, no temple recommend, and also no church calling.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue.

The order of the church, that the members should not use tobacco and coffee/black tea , is in my opinion an infringement of the personal rights of the members of the LDS.

How?

Joseph Smith never had gave this as an "order" but only as an advice.

That's correct. We did not, as members of the church, make the promise until Brigham Young's time, during the mass migration to Utah. it was, in part, a way to separate ourselves from everybody else; a covenant of sorts....one that we keep today.

In his store business tobacco was chewed, whiskey drunk at that time; and sweet coffee consumes in large quantities.
The WoW was declared the law/order God only under Brigham Young which led a kind of LDS Taliban power in Utah.

Uh huh....the 'Mormon Taliban" that had women VOTING 70 years before most other American women were allowed to vote, where women could be physicians, judges, lawyers and writers long before other women could do so?

Yep, how very oppressive of us, to be sure.

Are you SURE you were ever a Mormon? Frankly, m'dear, you sound more and more like the sort of kamikazi Mormon I have run into before: people who claim to have been 'converted away' from a religion to which they never actually belonged...and certainly never learned about from honest to goodness MORMONS. You get so many things just...well...wrong, y'know?

Not different opinions about beliefs, but getting the actual beliefs and practices wrong. It's beginning to make me curious.

[Nickman]

The "Word of Wisdom"?
Do you know that most people are just in Utah with overweight? Why? Because the members do not hold on to the WoW. I have lived some time in Idaho. And it was forbidden to the members there to drink Coke. Whoever did it anyway did not get any patriarchal blessing, no temple recommend, and also no church calling.

I'm sorry, but this is simply untrue.

The order of the church, that the members should not use tobacco and coffee/black tea , is in my opinion an infringement of the personal rights of the members of the LDS.

How?

Joseph Smith never had gave this as an "order" but only as an advice.

That's correct. We did not, as members of the church, make the promise until Brigham Young's time, during the mass migration to Utah. it was, in part, a way to separate ourselves from everybody else; a covenant of sorts....one that we keep today.

In his store business tobacco was chewed, whiskey drunk at that time; and sweet coffee consumes in large quantities.
The WoW was declared the law/order God only under Brigham Young which led a kind of LDS Taliban power in Utah.

Uh huh....the 'Mormon Taliban" that had women VOTING 70 years before most other American women were allowed to vote, where women could be physicians, judges, lawyers and writers long before other women could do so?

Yep, how very oppressive of us, to be sure.

Are you SURE you were ever a Mormon? Frankly, m'dear, you sound more and more like the sort of kamikazi Mormon I have run into before: people who claim to have been 'converted away' from a religion to which they never actually belonged...and certainly never learned about from honest to goodness MORMONS. You get so many things just...well...wrong, y'know?

Not different opinions about beliefs, but getting the actual beliefs and practices wrong. It's beginning to make me curious.

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870 but was revoked in 1887 by the church. It was then given back in 1895. The movement was started by antipolygamist women.

Emily Richards, Sarah Kimball, and Pheobe Beatie were the suffrage leaders of the movement. We still don't see women holding office in the church. We see relief society presidents who have no sway in the church whatsoever. You may think they do but they don't. Women are still not allowed to officiate.

[The Ex-Mormon]

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870 but was revoked in 1887 by the church. It was then given back in 1895. The movement was started by antipolygamist women.

I did not know this. But it shows that the LDS had used (better abused)the vote for women as a weapon.

Emily Richards, Sarah Kimball, and Pheobe Beatie were the suffrage leaders of the movement. We still don't see women holding office in the church. We see relief society presidents who have no sway in the church whatsoever. You may think they do but they don't. Women are still not allowed to officiate.

This was different in the church which Jesus and his apostles founded. Men and women had the same rights. Yes, they were even apostles. Two are known: Junia (Romans 16:7) and Mary Magdalene. Women conducted and founded so-called "house churches" because, at that time, there was not churches as we know it today. They were deacons. There by the way was the last ordination to a deaconess in the 6th century A.D.

[dianaiad]

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870

Nickman, this is not only factually incorrect, it's a STUPID and factually incorrect claim. It's not like one can't look this up in any law or history text.

First, Mormon women have been voting since 1830 odd, NOT since 1870, although the territory of Utah officially gave them the vote in 1870. It was removed from them, not by the church, but by the church's opponents; the federal government removed the right of women to vote as part of the Edmund Tucker act, and the right was given immediately BACK to the women at the statehood constitutional convention.

Second, you can't have this both ways. Either Utah was a theocracy...in which case it most definitely WAS the church which granted women the right to vote earlier than almost any other American woman, or it was not a theocracy, in which case it most certainly did not OPPOSE giving women the right to vote (and you, who attribute so great a power to the church in political matters, would have to admit that if the church opposed it, it wouldn't happen...again, you can't have this both ways).

I have only one thing to ask....are you serious, here?

You can't be.

[dianaiad]

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870 but was revoked in 1887 by the church. It was then given back in 1895. The movement was started by antipolygamist women.

I did not know this. But it shows that the LDS had used (better abused)the vote for women as a weapon.

Nickman lied to you. Or rather, he made a factually incorrect statement. The CHURCH never removed the right of women to vote; it supported the rights of women to vote from the very beginning. The federal government took the right of women to vote, because IT didn't like the thought of Mormon women voting. It was part of a 'deal' of sorts. If Utah allowed the feds to take women's suffrage away from them, then the feds would allow Utah to become a state. The women THEMSELVES voted to allow this...on the word of the men that this right would be returned.

...............and it was, almost immediately; it was one of the first things done at the state constitutional convention, held after it was too late for the feds to rescind its agreement to allow Utah to become a state.

But please, don't trust ME. I'm just the great granddaughter of four of the women concerned in this. Look it up for yourself.

[Nickman]

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870 but was revoked in 1887 by the church. It was then given back in 1895. The movement was started by antipolygamist women.

I did not know this. But it shows that the LDS had used (better abused)the vote for women as a weapon.

Nickman lied to you. Or rather, he made a factually incorrect statement. The CHURCH never removed the right of women to vote; it supported the rights of women to vote from the very beginning. The federal government took the right of women to vote, because IT didn't like the thought of Mormon women voting. It was part of a 'deal' of sorts. If Utah allowed the feds to take women's suffrage away from them, then the feds would allow Utah to become a state. The women THEMSELVES voted to allow this...on the word of the men that this right would be returned.

...............and it was, almost immediately; it was one of the first things done at the state constitutional convention, held after it was too late for the feds to rescind its agreement to allow Utah to become a state.

But please, don't trust ME. I'm just the great granddaughter of four of the women concerned in this. Look it up for yourself.

You don't understand the reason for womens sufferage, and why it was appealed by church leaders. If the women had right to vote and had a voice, polygamy would have been possibly abolished. It would have definitely been debated. If it wasn't for the womens sufferage then polygamy would still be in affect, and you would share your man with other women, which I know you wouldn't like.

The manifesto made by the church president shows his concern about statehood. The women who fought for their rights were a hinderance for the church. The only way to come out clean and gain statehood was to denounce polygamy and give women rights. Theres no way around it. It is all politics. It has nothing to do with god.

n 1896.[/quote]

[dianaiad]

Womens rights to vote and hold office were not deemed by the church. The womens right to vote was first deemed in 1870 but was revoked in 1887 by the church. It was then given back in 1895. The movement was started by antipolygamist women.

I did not know this. But it shows that the LDS had used (better abused)the vote for women as a weapon.

Nickman lied to you. Or rather, he made a factually incorrect statement. The CHURCH never removed the right of women to vote; it supported the rights of women to vote from the very beginning. The federal government took the right of women to vote, because IT didn't like the thought of Mormon women voting. It was part of a 'deal' of sorts. If Utah allowed the feds to take women's suffrage away from them, then the feds would allow Utah to become a state. The women THEMSELVES voted to allow this...on the word of the men that this right would be returned.

...............and it was, almost immediately; it was one of the first things done at the state constitutional convention, held after it was too late for the feds to rescind its agreement to allow Utah to become a state.

But please, don't trust ME. I'm just the great granddaughter of four of the women concerned in this. Look it up for yourself.

You don't understand the reason for womens sufferage, and why it was appealed by church leaders. If the women had right to vote and had a voice, polygamy would have been possibly abolished. It would have definitely been debated. If it wasn't for the womens sufferage then polygamy would still be in affect, and you would share your man with other women, which I know you wouldn't like.

The manifesto made by the church president shows his concern about statehood. The women who fought for their rights were a hinderance for the church. The only way to come out clean and gain statehood was to denounce polygamy and give women rights. Theres no way around it. It is all politics. It has nothing to do with god.

n 1896.

[/quote]

I don't understand? I understand history and what happened, and you are simply making up stuff.

[The Ex-Mormon]

Nickman lied to you. Or rather, he made a factually incorrect statement.

Nick does not lie and he is not mistaken either. I have learned to believe him more than you. Why? Because he delivers verifiable facts, you only unproved assertions.

The CHURCH never removed the right of women to vote; it supported the rights of women to vote from the very beginning. The federal government took the right of women to vote, because IT didn't like the thought of Mormon women voting.

You think LDS women would have the passive right to vote; because they may raise their hands in the church; to confirm somebody in his calling?
This is not an election, this is demand to be blind obedience! What happens if a woman does not raise her hand or because that she said that she is against the calling for this person? At that time as today? You know the answer! I only say "church discipline". Were women allowed to give themselves alone the priesthood? No. Were women allowed to appoint himself to apostles, deaconesses or bishop? No! Why not? Because the LDS is a man church with man rules; only men are preferred!

But please, don't trust ME. I'm just the great granddaughter of four of the women concerned in this. Look it up for yourself.

One of my ancestors has been a woman who had fought for the vote for women in Great Britain. If I am for or against the vote for women now; does this make me more credible? No! Only historical facts count!

[dianaiad]

Nickman lied to you. Or rather, he made a factually incorrect statement.

Nick does not lie and he is not mistaken either. I have learned to believe him more than you. Why? Because he delivers verifiable facts, you only unproved assertions.

The CHURCH never removed the right of women to vote; it supported the rights of women to vote from the very beginning. The federal government took the right of women to vote, because IT didn't like the thought of Mormon women voting.

You think LDS women would have the passive right to vote; because they may raise their hands in the church; to confirm somebody in his calling?

No. I am talking about voting, as in a city, county and state election.

If you want verifiable facts, lady, here are some verifiable facts, something that Nickman is not only ignoring,but presenting as completely opposite to what they are.

Women's Suffrage--the right of women to vote--was won twice in Utah. It was granted first in 1870 by the territorial legislature but revoked by Congress in 1887 as part of a national effort to rid the territory of polygamy. It was restored in 1895, when the right to vote and hold office was written into the constitution of the new state.

The TERRITORIAL government, which was run by Mormons (you know, the Territorial governor was Brigham Young at the time...) gave women the right to vote in all civil elections.

That vote was TAKEN AWAY BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, (NOT the church) by the US Congress, in 1887, and restored, after a long fight WITH the government over statehood, at the state constitutional convention. The church was always 100% behind the rights of women to vote.

This is what is frustrating about Nickman's presentation; he's not only incorrect, he KNOWS he's incorrect, and he doesn't care. He thinks that the church is against women, and so it is not possible for the church to have been supportive of women's suffrage---even though the facts are absolutely proof to anybody who can check dates and actions that the fight for women's suffrage in Utah and in the church was not 'women against the church,' but "women and the church against the federal government."

I don't particularly care whether you believe me or not. I do, however, expect you to believe history...and the bald facts. I haven't lied to you here.

From the same site (which is "Utah History to Go," NOT an LDS site) we get this:

In 1888 Emily S. Richards, wife of the Mormon church attorney, Franklin S. Richards, approached church officials with a proposal to form a Utah suffrage association affiliated with the National Woman Suffrage Association. With church approval, the territorial association was formed on 10 January 1889 with leading roles given to women who were not involved in polygamous marriages. Margaret N. Caine, wife of Delegate to Congress John T. Caine, was the president and Emily Richards was appointed a state organizer. Acting quickly, Mrs. Richards organized local units throughout the territory.

Please note; the church was BEHIND, and SUPPORTED, Women's suffrage movements in Utah.

From the same site:

Utah women probably succeeded in 1895 where women elsewhere had failed because their efforts were approved by leaders of the main political force in the state--the Mormon church.

I