Hypothetical exercise.

10CC · Post by **10CC** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:29 pm

I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?

1213 · Post by **1213** » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:19 pm

10CC wrote: Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?

What worship means?

I think you all should know that love for God means:
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

And the Law is in this fulfilled:
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

I think those are good rules even if I would not have eternal life. And I hope I would keep them any way. And actually I think there is nothing promised for obeying that. According to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous, and that is more than obeying the Law.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:28 am

10CC wrote: I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?

No, no, and no. If it was made clear by this God that there was no afterlife, then everything would become absolutely meaningless. There is no sense in unconditional love as much as in unconditional hate when non-existence is the ultimate fate of both in this hypothetical world of yours. All that there is is meaninglessness is my eyes.

10CC · Post by **10CC** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:35 am

jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote: I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?
No, no, and no. If it was made clear by this God that there was no afterlife, then everything would become absolutely meaningless. There is no sense in unconditional love as much as in unconditional hate when non-existence is the ultimate fate of both in this hypothetical world of yours. All that there is is meaninglessness is my eyes.

What you are incapable of creating real meaning in your life? Your life having meaning relies entirely on a fantasy of living forever after you die? Do you know anyone who has done that?

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:46 am

10CC wrote:
jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote: I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?
No, no, and no. If it was made clear by this God that there was no afterlife, then everything would become absolutely meaningless. There is no sense in unconditional love as much as in unconditional hate when non-existence is the ultimate fate of both in this hypothetical world of yours. All that there is is meaninglessness is my eyes.
What you are incapable of creating real meaning in your life? Your life having meaning relies entirely on a fantasy of living forever after you die? Do you know anyone who has done that?

I see no meaning in this life alone if there is nonexistence when you die. How should I create meaning? Should I go out and be a philanthropist? Should I go out and be a serial killer? If both gave me pleasure and I was clever enough to escape punishment as a killer, could you really argue for one's sake over the other?

My meaning does rely on a fantasy. It's the only way I can have hope that things in this world matter. And no, I don't know anyone whose lived forever after they died. Faith would be a ton easier if I did. All that remains to be seen when I die is if the fantasy ends up being a reality.

10CC · Post by **10CC** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:09 am

jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote:
jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote: I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?
No, no, and no. If it was made clear by this God that there was no afterlife, then everything would become absolutely meaningless. There is no sense in unconditional love as much as in unconditional hate when non-existence is the ultimate fate of both in this hypothetical world of yours. All that there is is meaninglessness is my eyes.
What you are incapable of creating real meaning in your life? Your life having meaning relies entirely on a fantasy of living forever after you die? Do you know anyone who has done that?
I see no meaning in this life alone if there is nonexistence when you die. How should I create meaning? Should I go out and be a philanthropist? Should I go out and be a serial killer? If both gave me pleasure and I was clever enough to escape punishment as a killer, could you really argue for one's sake over the other?

My meaning does rely on a fantasy. It's the only way I can have hope that things in this world matter. And no, I don't know anyone whose lived forever after they died. Faith would be a ton easier if I did. All that remains to be seen when I die is if the fantasy ends up being a reality.

So now do you understand the only value of religious belief that exists? It apparently exists to assuage your insecurity.

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:17 am

10CC wrote: So now do you understand the only value of religious belief that exists? It apparently exists to assuage your insecurity.

One of the values of religious belief is that it provides comfort and hope. So yes, it assuages my insecurity. What's your point?

JohnA · Post by **JohnA** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:17 am

jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote:
jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote: I would like to propose a hypothetical situation and get your thoughts on it.
Let's suppose that a creator god really does exist and that he really did send down rules for humans to abide by, eg be nice, don't kill, love one another etc. But this god has no intention of providing an afterlife, no reward and no punishment. His rules are designed simply to make the lives of his creation better, while they have the life he created for them.
Would you still worship this god?
Would you still obey this god?
Would you still love this god with all your heart?
No, no, and no. If it was made clear by this God that there was no afterlife, then everything would become absolutely meaningless. There is no sense in unconditional love as much as in unconditional hate when non-existence is the ultimate fate of both in this hypothetical world of yours. All that there is is meaninglessness is my eyes.
What you are incapable of creating real meaning in your life? Your life having meaning relies entirely on a fantasy of living forever after you die? Do you know anyone who has done that?
I see no meaning in this life alone if there is nonexistence when you die. How should I create meaning? Should I go out and be a philanthropist? Should I go out and be a serial killer? If both gave me pleasure and I was clever enough to escape punishment as a killer, could you really argue for one's sake over the other?

My meaning does rely on a fantasy. It's the only way I can have hope that things in this world matter. And no, I don't know anyone whose lived forever after they died. Faith would be a ton easier if I did. All that remains to be seen when I die is if the fantasy ends up being a reality.

Am really sad for you. Seems like religion has done a nasty job on you.
You need to find your own meaning in life. This meaning would probably be in the category to minimize overall suffering for life, or at least for our species. And I would never argue that killing is "wrong"; we all do it every day. However, I would say that murder (unlawful killing) is always wrong because it is against the law due to the fact that it will maximize extinction if it was allowed.

You also need to consider that you may be worshiping the wrong god, upsetting the real god. Ever considered that betting on the wrong god is a bigger gamble to take than worshiping no god - since none can have evidence for their existence?

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:24 am

JohnA wrote:
Am really sad for you. Seems like religion has done a nasty job on you.
You need to find your own meaning in life. This meaning would probably be in the category to minimize overall suffering for life, or at least for our species. And I would never argue that killing is "wrong"; we all do it every day. However, I would say that murder (unlawful killing) is always wrong because it is against the law and maximizes extinction.

You also need to consider that you may be worshiping the wrong god, upsetting the real god. Ever considered that betting on the wrong god is a bigger gamble to take than worshiping no go since none have evidence for their existence?

No need for concern, the choices I make are my own and I have lived as both religious and non-religious. People seem to think I care very little for this life since I view it as meaningless if there is no afterlife. But it's the opposite. I care deeply for life and meaning, and that is why I put my hope in an afterlife, so that the actions of this life matter.

I don't worry about worshipping the wrong God. If I'm honest and sincere in my pursuit for God than I have hope that God will appreciate this, even if I was wrong. There's not much else I can do anyways.

10CC · Post by **10CC** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:40 am

jgh7 wrote:
10CC wrote: So now do you understand the only value of religious belief that exists? It apparently exists to assuage your insecurity.
One of the values of religious belief is that it provides comfort and hope. So yes, it assuages my insecurity. What's your point?

No, I said the ONLY value.

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:20 am

[Replying to 10CC]

I know what you said, and ONLY value is your opinion, not mine.

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