Is the Universe Mechanistic?

[Bro Dave]

If this were a mechanistic universe...

Urantia Book p846:6 75:8.7 If this were a mechanistic universe, if the First Great Source and Center were only a force and not also a personality, if all creation were a vast aggregation of physical matter dominated by precise laws characterized by unvarying energy actions, then might perfection obtain, even despite the incompleteness of universe status. {There would be no disagreement; there would be no friction. But in our evolving universe of relative perfection and imperfection we rejoice that disagreement and misunderstanding are possible, for thereby is evidenced the fact and the act of personality in the universe.} And if our creation is an existence dominated by personality, then can you be assured of the possibilities of personality survival, advancement, and achievement; we can be confident of personality growth, experience, and adventure. What a glorious universe, in that it is personal and progressive, not merely mechanical or even passively perfect!

Like a wine goblet, the universe only has value by what it contains. The sort of "grey" mindless processes that would produce an mechanistic universe, would have not values or meaning associated with them, and therefore no beauty or love.

Bro Dave

[bernee51]

If this were a mechanistic universe...

Urantia Book p846:6 75:8.7 If this were a mechanistic universe, if the First Great Source and Center were only a force and not also a personality, if all creation were a vast aggregation of physical matter dominated by precise laws characterized by unvarying energy actions, then might perfection obtain, even despite the incompleteness of universe status. {There would be no disagreement; there would be no friction. But in our evolving universe of relative perfection and imperfection we rejoice that disagreement and misunderstanding are possible, for thereby is evidenced the fact and the act of personality in the universe.} And if our creation is an existence dominated by personality, then can you be assured of the possibilities of personality survival, advancement, and achievement; we can be confident of personality growth, experience, and adventure. What a glorious universe, in that it is personal and progressive, not merely mechanical or even passively perfect!

Like a wine goblet, the universe only has value by what it contains. The sort of "grey" mindless processes that would produce an mechanistic universe, would have not values or meaning associated with them, and therefore no beauty or love.

Bro Dave

Bro Dave

I am having difficulty seeing the point of your post - other than to self-reinforce the 'truth' you see in Urantia. It also highlights the difficulty I have in just reading Urantia. As an example, the term 'relative perfection' is something I have difficulty with. Either something is perfect in its own right or it is not. It cannot be perfect relative to something else.

I agree, looking at the universe from a human perspective we may have difficulty reconciling the 'beauty' with a purely mechanistic view. But that is taking a very blinkered view. Experience on this forum alone is clearly incdicative of the fact we humans, if anything, are blinkered.

Back to basics. I take a 'holonic' view of our existence. At the level of the geosphere we clearly have a mechanistic universe, to which our (human) 'nuts and bolts' are definately intrically connected. The laws that govern the physical world govern us. But, as quantum threory has shown, even those laws are purley statistical in origin. Chaos does automatically tend to order - and back again. Diffusion of one liquid into another is an example of this.

Enveloping (including and transcending) the geosphere is the biosphere. The only biosphere that I have experience of is the one I am sitting in. (althought thre are strong indications that a biosphere may exist on mars and most probably other planets in the universe.) That said structure and process at this level are governed by the laws of physics. The biology of the planet is made up of atoms which will react purely mechanistically to influences of other atoms.

The next encircling sphere, which includes and transcends the previous two, is the noosphere (that of the mind). Your understanding of Urantia notwithstanding, the only evidence I have of the existence of this 'level' is probably human existence (perhaps aided by more 'advanced mammals). This is the source of the understanding and interpretation of 'beauty and love'.

Encapsulating these three is the sphere of what has come to be known as 'spirit'. This sphere, I believe, is the direct result of the fact that sentient beings are 'conscious'. Our actions add to 'spirit' and this is the source of beauty, repulsiveness, love, hate and all the other dualities which we believe to exist.

(As an aside, disrupt any of one of these 'levels' and all above it would be disrupted. Destroy the biosphere and the noosphere is gone but the geopshere would continue.)

All this is clearly a result of an evolutionary process. All of this is indeed mechanistic. The only 'personality' the universe has is what is contributed to it by sentient beings. To date, there is only one planet of which I am aware or have evidence of on which sentient beings are extant is the one on which we are standing.

The 'personality' is our perception and our perceptions are anything but real.

[Cephus]

Y'all are missing the point. Mechanical "things" are incapable of the process of recognising those qualities such as beauty.

It's already been pointed out to you that beauty, like most qualities, is in the eye of the beholder and that standards of beauty don't hold across social, economic or national lines. What you might find beautiful, the tribesman in Africa would find hideous. You cannot find a single standard for beauty, so much so that it's doubtful that beauty as a concept even exists.

Like a stuffed raccoon is techically still a raccoon but with all reasons for its existance removed. While animals appear to be capable of enjoying life, their response remains superfical, with no hint of being philosophical.

When did you become an expert in raccoon philosophy? Or are you assuming that all animals must exhibit *HUMAN* traits, even though they are not human? For all you know, the raccoons are sitting there thinking humans are superficial because they exhibit no hint of raccoon philosophy.

[Bro Dave]

If this were a mechanistic universe...

Urantia Book p846:6 75:8.7 If this were a mechanistic universe, if the First Great Source and Center were only a force and not also a personality, if all creation were a vast aggregation of physical matter dominated by precise laws characterized by unvarying energy actions, then might perfection obtain, even despite the incompleteness of universe status. {There would be no disagreement; there would be no friction. But in our evolving universe of relative perfection and imperfection we rejoice that disagreement and misunderstanding are possible, for thereby is evidenced the fact and the act of personality in the universe.} And if our creation is an existence dominated by personality, then can you be assured of the possibilities of personality survival, advancement, and achievement; we can be confident of personality growth, experience, and adventure. What a glorious universe, in that it is personal and progressive, not merely mechanical or even passively perfect!

Like a wine goblet, the universe only has value by what it contains. The sort of "grey" mindless processes that would produce an mechanistic universe, would have not values or meaning associated with them, and therefore no beauty or love.

Bro Dave

Bro Dave

I am having difficulty seeing the point of your post - other than to self-reinforce the 'truth' you see in Urantia. It also highlights the difficulty I have in just reading Urantia. As an example, the term 'relative perfection' is something I have difficulty with. Either something is perfect in its own right or it is not. It cannot be perfect relative to something else.

Relative perfection describes attaining design potential, where only God is absolutely perfect.

Back to basics. I take a 'holonic' view of our existence. At the level of the geosphere we clearly have a mechanistic universe, to which our (human) 'nuts and bolts' are definitely intrinsically connected. The laws that govern the physical world govern us. But, as quantum theory has shown, even those laws are purely statistical in origin. Chaos does automatically tend to order - and back again. Diffusion of one liquid into another is an example of this.

Enveloping (including and transcending) the geosphere is the biosphere. The only biosphere that I have experience of is the one I am sitting in. (although there are strong indications that a biosphere may exist on mars and most probably other planets in the universe.) That said structure and process at this level are governed by the laws of physics. The biology of the planet is made up of atoms which will react purely mechanistically to influences of other atoms.

The next encircling sphere, which includes and transcends the previous two, is the noosphere (that of the mind). Your understanding of Urantia notwithstanding, the only evidence I have of the existence of this 'level' is probably human existence (perhaps aided by more 'advanced mammals). This is the source of the understanding and interpretation of 'beauty and love'.

Encapsulating these three is the sphere of what has come to be known as 'spirit'. This sphere, I believe, is the direct result of the fact that sentient beings are 'conscious'. Our actions add to 'spirit' and this is the source of beauty, repulsiveness, love, hate and all the other dualities which we believe to exist.

(As an aside, disrupt any of one of these 'levels' and all above it would be disrupted. Destroy the biosphere and the noosphere is gone but the geopshere would continue.)

As you probably would expect, I disagree. I see our physical as an embryonic stage from which we “hatch” into our higher spiritual existence. Removing the “hatchery” would have no effect on those already :”hatched”

All this is clearly a result of an evolutionary process. All of this is indeed mechanistic. The only 'personality' the universe has is what is contributed to it by sentient beings. To date, there is only one planet of which I am aware or have evidence of on which sentient beings are extant is the one on which we are standing.

The 'personality' is our perception and our perceptions are anything but real.

Reality, strangely, is the difficult piece. We are, by our nature, limited in what we perceive. And so, our perceptions of “reality” cannot encompass anything “higher”, except by implication, or by direct personal contact of conciseness’ capable of conveying what they perceive. I have many friend who do exactly that. However, most are reluctant to discuss those contacts for fear of ridicule. This is not really a strange “gift”. It is our future. As with any other facility, like sight or hearing, some have do it with more clarity. We are, like unfolding flowers. Its okay to be a bud, just as its okay to be a blossom.

Bro Dave