The trilemma all gods face

[Wootah]

Hi all,

It just seemed like a lot of people on the site were not familiar with the trilemma all gods worth following face. This is the trilemma of is the God good, is it just and is it loving.

So what's the issue.

If the God is good then it is just. If it is not just then it is not good.
If the God is just then it cannot be merciful. if the god wants to show mercy on someone then it is not being just. If it wants to be just then it is not being merciful.
If a Good is merciful then it is not being just and nor is it being good.

No god outside of God resolves this trilemma. For instance Allah is claimed to be just and merciful but never explains how it is being just or merciful when it shows mercy on someone. Worse since we know Allah is claimed to be merciful then we know Allah is not just or good. If a God is not good then there is nothing to trust and so why does anyone follow Allah? What proof is there that Allah actually is merciful.

So in Christianity the trilemma is resolved.

Mankind's sins require justice.
God justly sentences us to hell.
God also loves us and so pays for our sins.
Those that wish to accept that payment for their sins are able to justly go to heaven.
In this way God shows that he is good, just and loving.

Obviously the floor is open to disagreement or refinement of the above.

[Bede]

A basic tenet of any reasonable system of justice is that the guilty one alone can pay for his/her crimes. An innocent person suffering for the crimes of the guilty is the height of injustice. If the Christian god punished an innocent person (the Biblical Jesus*) for the crimes/sins of the guilty, then he is no better than a corrupt judge who willfully convicts someone he known to be innocent. That is the very definition of injustice and the opposite of goodness or mercy!



How is it possibly just to accept the fact that an innocent person was punished for your crimes? Anyone who would accept such a "sacrifice" is no better than a criminal who rests easily knowing he is escaping punishment because an innocent, wrongfully convicted person is sitting in prison for the crimes the criminal committed. How is this anything but gross immorality and injustice?

You have correctly given one of the problems with the Protestant theory of penal substitution.

The other problems with that theory are:

1. If Jesus is punished for our sins then he should be in hell.

2, If Jesus was punished for everyone sins then everyone should be exonerated or else two people are being punished for the same crime.

[ttruscott]

How is consigning anyone to hell, an eternity of torture, justice? In any sense of the word?

How is infinite punishment for finite sins just?

No one goes to hell for a 'finite' sin. The disvalue of all or any sin is infinite. The reason some end in hell for their infinite sin and some do not end in hell for their infinite sin is that some accepted HIM as their deity and got HIS promise of legal salvation from the infinite judgement on all sin and sanctification from addiction to sin,

while some rejected these remedies for sin believing HE was a false god and his definitions of reality and the disvalue of sin and the need of HIS help to save us from sin were self serving manipulations.

Sin does not put people in hell, their rejection of salvation does that.

To believe in infinite torture as the default position for most of mankind, it seems to me is to make God out to be a monster, and not compassionate and merciful and certainly not just.

Only sinners are born as human and there are eternally sinful and the temporarily sinful sinners here. GOD did not create sinners of either kind, so how does how HE fills this rehab centre to cure the addiction to evil in HIS temporarily sinful elect make HIM a monster???

It may be the default position for the most of mankind at any given moment but 1. it is the default for the choices these people made when they self created their eternal relationship with YHWH. 2. The numbers of saved may exceed the numbers of lost due to their being seeded within the population of the world as a whole which has stayed static due to their being reincarnated as they profess. This has nothing to do with their false understanding of reincarnation as a method to attain enlightenment (it is not and salvation is only found in Christ) but it would explain why they knew they are reincarnated and the people of YHWH are not.

Hell is necessary due to the nature of HIS goal for creation...the sharing of the heavenly experience of full, loving, holy, telepathic communion with everyone together with their GOD throughout all of created reality (which we will get to explore). Can you imagine how one dissatisfied evil criminal mind would poison, little by little, such a communion until all is rotten?

Therefor the heavenly link cannot be 'turned on' until everyone is perfectly holy and righteous by their free will and will never chose evil again. Since the eternally evil reprobate cannot achieve this or be forced to be like this, they must be banished from ever being in the heavenly link, banished from all of created reality to that place Christ called the outer darkness, that place which was outside of or past the edge of created reality.

Its existence was not created as a prison like tartarus was, nor is it a place of punishment but the effects of it upon the reprobate will seem that way so this is moot. It is a judgment that they must be banished or they will contaminate the heavenly goal which is the only reason we were created.

Peace, Ted

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to ttruscott]

No one goes to hell for a 'finite' sin. The disvalue of all or any sin is infinite. The reason some end in hell for their infinite sin and some do not end in hell for their infinite sin is that some accepted HIM as their deity and got HIS promise of legal salvation from the infinite judgement on all sin and sanctification from addiction to sin,

while some rejected these remedies for sin believing HE was a false god and his definitions of reality and the disvalue of sin and the need of HIS help to save us from sin were self serving manipulations.

Sin does not put people in hell, their rejection of salvation does that.

According to what you are calming to be true 2,000 years ago God, in an effort to redeem mankind from His original plan for their original fall, sent Himself to a backwater part of an ancient Roman province to die an agonizing death for the purpose of being resurrected from the dead so that He would end up only appearing in His risen form only to His immediate followers and only in a manner such that they would not immediately recognize Him. Meanwhile hoards of dead people would come up out of their graves and to be seen by many but recorded by NO ONE at the time, except for a single passing reference in a book written decades after the fact. And now, 2,000 years later, after 2,000 years of empty promises of further returns from the dead, all of those who DO NOT believe this story are going to be consigned to an eternity of torment in hell. That's a twisted tale of fate that would make Monty Python proud. God, you gotta love Him!

But my question is, if God only wanted to be surround by the very child-like in heaven, why didn't He simply create only very child-like individuals right from the very beginning? Making some humans to actually be intelligent and questioning seems like such a dirty trick.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]

Sin does not put people in hell, their rejection of salvation does that.

So lets assume person A is a blank slate. Person A would go to heaven and avoid hell if there was no Sin on Person A's slate correct?

Person B has a blank slate but they committed a sin So Person B would go to hell

Person C has a blanks slate but commits 1 sin and then accepts J and the sin is removed.

Person A no sin =heaven
Person B 1 sin = hell
Person C 1 sin -1J =0 sin=heaven

Sin is the cause no matter which way you look at it.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 13 by Tired of the Nonsense]
and
[Replying to post 14 by DanieltheDragon]

Both of you are replying to ttruscott but forgetting that his theology is not standard Christianity. According to him, we all existed prior to our incarnations here on earth. In that pre-existence, we were given the free choice to accept or reject God's salvation. Those who rejected God, were to be sent to Hell. Some of those who accepted God, questioned God's decision and in doing so have sinned. All sinners both those who accepted God and those who rejected God in their pre-existence are then to become human. The elect, those sinners who nevertheless accepted God, become human to have a chance to learn, humble themselves, repent and then fully accept God's wisdom and grace. The non-elect, those who rejected God in their pre-existence, are irredeemable and are still condemned to hell. Those with no sin never need to have a life on earth.

ttruscott, please correct me if I misrepresent you.

DanieltheDragon, your Person A never gets born on earth. Person B has rejected God in the preexistence and cannot in the earthly life find God's grace through faith. Person C has sinned, but being promised salvation in the preexistence by God, will be redeemed.

[Zzyzx]

.

According to what you are calming to be true 2,000 years ago God, in an effort to redeem mankind from His original plan for their original fall, sent Himself to a backwater part of an ancient Roman province to die an agonizing death for the purpose of being resurrected from the dead so that He would end up only appearing in His risen form only to His immediate followers and only in a manner such that they would not immediately recognize Him. Meanwhile hoards of dead people would come up out of their graves and to be seen by many but recorded by NO ONE at the time, except for a single passing reference in a book written decades after the fact. And now, 2,000 years later, after 2,000 years of empty promises of further returns from the dead, all of those who DO NOT believe this story are going to be consigned to an eternity of torment in hell. That's a twisted tale of fate that would make Monty Python proud. God, you gotta love Him!

All of that sounds very reasonable and believable. Where do I sign up?

"Rejection of salvation" that Ted mentions sounds like some serious stuff; but it is good to hear that we can keep on sinning without risking the promised rewards after we die (again and again?).

Where, by the way, can I verify that any of this is true?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 15 by McCulloch]

Ttruscott has me on Ignore, because "heaven forbid" he should hear something that he might disagree with, so when I reply to ttruscott I am really only replying to the forum at large. He's only here to Pontificate on his personal view of reality, and not to exchange ideas. But I reply to him anyway.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]

Sin does not put people in hell, their rejection of salvation does that.

So lets assume person A is a blank slate. Person A would go to heaven and avoid hell if there was no Sin on Person A's slate correct?

Yes - this describes the holy angels.

Person B has a blank slate but they committed a sin So Person B would go to hell

Person C has a blanks slate but commits 1 sin and then accepts J and the sin is removed.

This is too simplistic to correctly match my understanding of the Christian system.

All persons, A -C make free will decisions about who they believe to be GOD, understanding that YHWH claims to be GOD and promises salvation from all sin to those who accept HIS deity but cannot (not: will not) provide that salvation to those who reject HIM as their GOD.

Thus it was this decision about our eternal relationship with YHWH that self created ourselves as saveable or non-saveable. It was this choice that made some potentially holy
and others as eternally sinful.

- Person A accepts YHWH as GOD to potential holiness. By keeping true to GOD's wishes and never deviating at every choice, he fulfills his potential and becomes perfectly holy.

- Person B rejects GOD and HIS promise of salvation, cannot be saved from this sin of rejection and so goes to hell.

- Person C accepts GOD so gains the potential to be holy but sins against GOD and becomes evil which he must be and will be saved from until he reaches his full potential as perfectly holy.

It is the relationship you have with YHWH that decides whether you can /will be saved from any sin or cannot be saved from sin...not the sin itself.

Sin is the cause of hell but the kind of sin or its disvalue as less than another sin has no bearing upon being saved or lost...all sin has the same and ultimate disvalue.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 13 by Tired of the Nonsense]
and
[Replying to post 14 by DanieltheDragon]

Both of you are replying to ttruscott but forgetting that his theology is not standard Christianity. According to him, we all existed prior to our incarnations here on earth. In that pre-existence, we were given the free choice to accept or reject God's salvation. Those who rejected God, were to be sent to Hell. Some of those who accepted God, questioned God's decision and in doing so have sinned. All sinners both those who accepted God and those who rejected God in their pre-existence are then to become human. The elect, those sinners who nevertheless accepted God, become human to have a chance to learn, humble themselves, repent and then fully accept God's wisdom and grace. The non-elect, those who rejected God in their pre-existence, are irredeemable and are still condemned to hell. Those with no sin never need to have a life on earth.

ttruscott, please correct me if I misrepresent you.

DanieltheDragon, your Person A never gets born on earth. Person B has rejected God in the preexistence and cannot in the earthly life find God's grace through faith. Person C has sinned, but being promised salvation in the preexistence by God, will be redeemed.

Perfect! Reps too you...



Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Where, by the way, can I verify that any of this is true?

If by this I can safely assume you mean proof of Christian reality as true, then I must mention I have volunteered such info before and been called for preaching.

But since you so openly ask and with no intent to influence your decisions, I will try again:

there is only one source of proof in the Christian system and that is GOD HIMself. That is the meaning of "Seek GOD and HE will answer." This seeking must be to HIS standards of sincerity, not ours.

Peace, Ted