Prove the claim..

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

Then prove that the Bible actually claims that Jesus is God with the same clarity as the Bible states that "YHVH is God". (Isaiah 45.5)

OR demonstrate in some other reasonable way that "Jesus is God".

If you cannot do this, then why do so many Christians persist in claiming others are hell-bound for NOT believing that "Jesus is God"?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 5 by Elijah John]

Perhaps I should not have linked the two challenges, as they are in effect, two different but not unrelated issues.

The first challenge appears to me to be unsuitable for this particular subforum, from my reading of the guidelines.

Let's move onto the second challenge then, shall we?

[onewithhim]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

I'm asking those who make absolute claims to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

You and I are not likely to agree on Biblical inerrancy, so let's move on to what we agree on, that Jesus is not God. So I'm guessing you agree that the Bible never claims that he IS God.

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

My $.02: I think that people who believe that are merely being true to their "team," if you will. They are used to being in a certain social situation---family, friends are in this religion---and they want to stay there, no matter what.

It's like the Catholic woman who, when approached by a deaf man who had been sexually abused by the priest that lived in her house and told her about what had happened when he was a boy, she brushed all that aside and vehemently said, "So what? You're Catholic, aren't you?!!" Apparently nothing matters as long as you remain faithful to your "team."

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

I'm asking those who make absolute claims to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

You and I are not likely to agree on Biblical inerrancy, so let's move on to what we agree on, that Jesus is not God. So I'm guessing you agree that the Bible never claims that he IS God.

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

My $.02: I think that people who believe that are merely being true to their "team," if you will. They are used to being in a certain social situation---family, friends are in this religion---and they want to stay there, no matter what.

It's like the Catholic woman who, when approached by a deaf man who had been sexually abused by the priest that lived in her house and told her about what had happened when he was a boy, she brushed all that aside and vehemently said, "So what? You're Catholic, aren't you?!!" Apparently nothing matters as long as you remain faithful to your "team."

Thanks for addressing the concluding part of the OP instead of getting bogged down in the first part. I have modified the first part of the OP to reflect the fair objections that some have already raised on this thread.

That is horrible, are you sure that is not just anecdotal? If that actually happened, that is certainly not reflective of most Catholics, who are as outraged by the abuse scandals as you and I are, and many of us are.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]

My theological positions:

-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God,
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

I am featuring the above to ask you this question:

What is Jesus to you, other than what you say, "I am inspired by" Him "to"?

[onewithhim]

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

No I don't know for sure.

Maybe they think that the bible did originally say "Jesus is God" and that and those bits got corrupted out of it, just as you believe that lots of bad bits in the bible got corrupted in. Maybe they think Paul took it out (how do you feel about Paul, do you think such a thing was below him?) Or maybe John (I take it you cannot trust John because he said some things that I presume are distasteful to you), maybe they believe John took out out the bit that says " and Jesus called the Apostles together and said I am YAHWEH and you must pray to me"

Surely you are not condemning people for believing the bible is unreliable and has been corrupted ... corruption works both ways: verses in there that shouldn't be there AND verses that were in there that got taken out.

So I don't know why they believe what they do, but it could have something to do with their believing that the bible has errors, omissions, spurious addtions and is basically corrupted literature.

JW

The ones I've talked to believe the Bible is literal and true, and esp. the KJV, in everything it says. They take John 1:1 for their primary "proof" that Jesus is God, even though it can be shown to them that that is not what John meant. They also believe that people are burned in a literal fire...even though Jesus was using it as a metaphor.

[onewithhim]

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

No I don't know for sure.

Maybe they think that the bible did originally say "Jesus is God" and that and those bits got corrupted out of it, just as you believe that lots of bad bits in the bible got corrupted in. Maybe they think Paul took it out (how do you feel about Paul, do you think such a thing was below him? Or maybe John (I take it you cannot trust John because he said some things that I presume are distasteful to you, maybe they believe John took out out the bit that says " and Jesus called the Apostles together and said I am YAHWEH and you must pray to me"

Surely you are not condemning people for believing the bible is unreliable and has been corrupted ...

JW

Bible literalists are usually the one's who claim that we have the Bible intact, and are also the ones who claim that Jesus is God.

Jehovah's Witnessesses and Christadelphians are exceptions to this, as they are literalists, but not Jesus-is-God claimants.

Seems Jesus-worshipers base theirs conclusion on what their Pastors preach, or the Creeds of the Trinitarian Churches and not on what the Bible actually teaches.

Paul and John have much higher Christologies than I do, but even they do not go as far as modern Trinitarians do.

With the exception of the pre-existing Jesus being Michael the Archangel, I think the JW's have a more accurate interpretation of Scripture. (not to say I accept Scripture in it's entirety) I say this as one who loves YHVH too, but as an outside observer. We differ on the infalliblility of the Bible, and the theologies of John and Paul.

JWs are actually not "literalists." We don't take Jesus' stories and comments about fire to be literal, because he undoubtedly used fire as a metaphor for complete annihilation. I agree that Jesus-is-God adherents take their pastors' word for everything and do not feel the need to check things out for themselves.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 9 by Elijah John]

My theological positions:

-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God,
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

I am featuring the above to ask you this question:

What is Jesus to you, other than what you say, "I am inspired by" Him "to"?

A little bit off topic, but I am happy to answer. I consider Jesus a Rabbi and a Prophet, who teaches us how to honor YHVH, the Father. The NT calls him both these things (Rabbi and Prophet), in various places. I could go into more detail, but that is the gist of it, who Jesus is to me.

Though I don't believe he is God, (nor do I believe he ever claimed to be God,) I usually find myself in agreement with him in all his disputes with the Temple Priests, the Sadducees, and the Pharisees.

[onewithhim]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

I'm asking those who make absolute claims to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

You and I are not likely to agree on Biblical inerrancy, so let's move on to what we agree on, that Jesus is not God. So I'm guessing you agree that the Bible never claims that he IS God.

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

My $.02: I think that people who believe that are merely being true to their "team," if you will. They are used to being in a certain social situation---family, friends are in this religion---and they want to stay there, no matter what.

It's like the Catholic woman who, when approached by a deaf man who had been sexually abused by the priest that lived in her house and told her about what had happened when he was a boy, she brushed all that aside and vehemently said, "So what? You're Catholic, aren't you?!!" Apparently nothing matters as long as you remain faithful to your "team."

Thanks for addressing the concluding part of the OP instead of getting bogged down in the first part. I have modified the first part of the OP to reflect the fair objections that some have already raised on this thread.

That is horrible, are you sure that is not just anecdotal? If that actually happened, that is certainly not reflective of most Catholics, who are as outraged by the abuse scandals as you and I are, and many of us are.

That actually happened, and it is in a documentary that was aired a couple years ago about many deaf boys who were sexually abused in a home for the deaf. I'll have to look up the name of the doc. In my experience I find that most Catholics are in a state of denial, and they defend the Church by mostly saying that all those children that were abused are lying and just interested in getting money. Others have the philosophy that "hey, we're all human and make mistakes." I don't agree with either viewpoint.

[Elijah John]

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

No I don't know for sure.

Maybe they think that the bible did originally say "Jesus is God" and that and those bits got corrupted out of it, just as you believe that lots of bad bits in the bible got corrupted in. Maybe they think Paul took it out (how do you feel about Paul, do you think such a thing was below him? Or maybe John (I take it you cannot trust John because he said some things that I presume are distasteful to you, maybe they believe John took out out the bit that says " and Jesus called the Apostles together and said I am YAHWEH and you must pray to me"

Surely you are not condemning people for believing the bible is unreliable and has been corrupted ...

JW

Bible literalists are usually the one's who claim that we have the Bible intact, and are also the ones who claim that Jesus is God.

Jehovah's Witnessesses and Christadelphians are exceptions to this, as they are literalists, but not Jesus-is-God claimants.

Seems Jesus-worshipers base theirs conclusion on what their Pastors preach, or the Creeds of the Trinitarian Churches and not on what the Bible actually teaches.

Paul and John have much higher Christologies than I do, but even they do not go as far as modern Trinitarians do.

With the exception of the pre-existing Jesus being Michael the Archangel, I think the JW's have a more accurate interpretation of Scripture. (not to say I accept Scripture in it's entirety) I say this as one who loves YHVH too, but as an outside observer. We differ on the infalliblility of the Bible, and the theologies of John and Paul.

JWs are actually not "literalists." We don't take Jesus' stories and comments about fire to be literal, because he undoubtedly used fire as a metaphor for complete annihilation. I agree that Jesus-is-God adherents take their pastors' word for everything and do not feel the need to check things out for themselves.

Thanks for the correction. Do JW's also believe that Jesus was speaking metaphorically, or literally, when he said "This is my body"...?

But I think we disagree on Biblical inerrancy.

I'm inclined to agree that Jesus was using the fire of the garbage dump Gehhenna as a metaphor for annihilation, but am not entirely convinced of this.

I like the JW interpretation better than the Evangelical interpretation. I think JW interpretation is more likely, in this case anyway.

[Elijah John]

Challenges for debate:

First you may need to prove that the Bible is inerrant, without scientific error or other contradicition. please do this without resorting to circular reasoning.

So you are asking the posters to prove a negative? Is that right?

I'm asking those who make absolute claims to prove it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

You and I are not likely to agree on Biblical inerrancy, so let's move on to what we agree on, that Jesus is not God. So I'm guessing you agree that the Bible never claims that he IS God.

If that is the case, do you have any idea why so many other Christians believe that others are hell-bound for NOT believing Jesus is God?

My $.02: I think that people who believe that are merely being true to their "team," if you will. They are used to being in a certain social situation---family, friends are in this religion---and they want to stay there, no matter what.

It's like the Catholic woman who, when approached by a deaf man who had been sexually abused by the priest that lived in her house and told her about what had happened when he was a boy, she brushed all that aside and vehemently said, "So what? You're Catholic, aren't you?!!" Apparently nothing matters as long as you remain faithful to your "team."

Thanks for addressing the concluding part of the OP instead of getting bogged down in the first part. I have modified the first part of the OP to reflect the fair objections that some have already raised on this thread.

That is horrible, are you sure that is not just anecdotal? If that actually happened, that is certainly not reflective of most Catholics, who are as outraged by the abuse scandals as you and I are, and many of us are.

That actually happened, and it is in a documentary that was aired a couple years ago about many deaf boys who were sexually abused in a home for the deaf. I'll have to look up the name of the doc. In my experience I find that most Catholics are in a state of denial, and they defend the Church by mostly saying that all those children that were abused are lying and just interested in getting money. Others have the philosophy that "hey, we're all human and make mistakes." I don't agree with either viewpoint.

I'm Catholic by heritage having grown up in the RCC, (though I have theological differences with the RCC), but my experience with the many Catholics I know, is they are horrified and disgusted by both the abuse, and the cover up.

But the bad apples, unfortunately, tarnish the whole at times. Sad but true.

I'm sorry to hear about the excuse-making in the Catholics you have encountered.