Democracy is Unbiblical

[StuartJ]

In the biblical folklore, some of the millions of folks in the mixed multitude wandering in the wilderness objected to the dictatorship of Moses and his sidekick Aaron:

They gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and Yahweh is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of Yahweh?

The probably fictional Moses and the sidekick he would later defrock, were none too pleased.

But the definitely fictional Yahweh had it sorted:

And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
And there came out a fire from Yahweh, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

So, there we have it ... Yahweh wants HIS chosen dictator to be running the show in HIS name ...

And he'll have the earth swallow those with notions of democracy.

(I can't see how you can possibly read philosophy, or poetry, or love into this nasty little tale either, BTW. It looks like more human politics to me.)

And for centuries, Christian popes were sure that THEY should be ruling the world in Jesus' mighty name ... but only until he comes back with more fire and hail mixed with blood.

So, should we set Pope Francis, or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson (a woman would NEVER do) or some other senior white male over us as Theocrat ... as the "Word of God" quite clearly intends ...?

[BeHereNow]

[Replying to post 1 by StuartJ]

I believe a better argument would be "Governments of man are unbiblical."

And we must be thankful for that. When Cromwell was on his regicidal rampage he allowed a Parliament of Saints, led by the splendidly named: PraiseGod Barebone. Even though the holiest intentions were there, it didn't work.

Religion, taken too seriously, is a force for destruction. When we add a touch of humour and smile at religion's absurdities (if we are allowed to!), we get on with our lives. God doesn't interfere either way. His bad behaviour is entirely biblical though in some theocracies today man imitates him very well by stoning poor girls or killing heretics.

Do you know of any endeavor that does not result in destruction, if taken too seriously?
Scientific progress, taken too seriously, results in war, etc.
Genetics, taken too seriously, give us, more bad than good.

Mankind has found many rationales for murder and destruction, and religion is certainly no exception.
Neither is any other endeavor, I would argue.

[JehovahsWitness]

But God is not a human.

Let me disagree

As long as it is done respectfully and you do not make any claims that your view is absolute truth, I have no problem with you disagreeing with anything I say. In the bible it is explicitly stated that God is a spirit. I believe this to mean he is not human.



Feel free to disagree at will.



JW

[marco]

I would respectfully draw your attention to the following ....


ANSWER

Stating the word ANSWER and then following it with something does not assure us that an answer has been provided. We may as well say democracy begins with D and Bible with B.


A real answer would be to concede that, in biblical terms, people are slaves, at the mercy of a dictator in the worst sense of the word dictator.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by marco]

Your voice has been heard, Marco, we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I willingly concede that if after typing the word "answer" I failed to add anything that could in any way shape or form be considered an answer, that would be evident of my poor writing skills and humbly beg your pardon.

In any case I wish you a most pleasant weekend,


Be well,


JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

All statements herein are faith based expressions of my personal opinion as a member of this faith

This first part of my response is just an aside, nothing to do with the topic itself. Feel free to ignore it if you wish.

Are JWs allowed to think other than what is expressed in this response? Can a member of the JWs say "Yes, it is a dictatorship" and remain a JW in good standing with the group?

If by "unbiblical" one means "wrong/sinful/condemned by God", that would depend on the times and the circumstances. The biblical system set up by God of the Israelites was not democratic but theocratic* in structure and any moves to make it so would have been in direct opposition to the nation's written "constitution".

It raises the question as to why a supposedly all knowing god would set up such a government knowing the problems with theocracies.

The bible implies that ALL present world governmental systems, whether democratic or not, are being temporarily tolerated by God and are soon to be destroyed (compare Dan 2:44)

So ultimately speaking, God is not for democracy, government of the people, for the people and by the people.

"Dictatorship" has been described as rule by an absolute power.

Which fits your god perfectly. So your god would be a dictator.

While the word is heavily negative in connotation, this is because humans given absolute power inevitaby abuse that power, thus human history has rendered the word dictator synonymous with "tyrant". But God is not a human.

You just said the theocratic biblical system was set up by God. Therefore, like Harry Truman, "the buck stops here". Your God has to accept ultimate responsibility. You can't just say he invents a theocracy and that the reason people dislike theocracies/dictatorships today is because humans mucked it up.

In the bible God is presented as being absolute in power and retains his right to establish ultimate rules as to what behaviour will or will not be tolerated.

Might makes right, after all...

However His exercise if power is never arbitrary, selfish or harmful for his subjects.

Ahem...
And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
And there came out a fire from Yahweh, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Care to try again?
Or what about the next morning, when the people complain that they are being killed?

The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. You have killed the Lords people, they said.

42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the tent of meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the Lord said to Moses, 45 Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once. And they fell facedown.

46 Then Moses said to Aaron, Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Lord; the plague has started. 47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. 48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped. 49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.

Want to tell us again how this isn't arbitrary, selfish or harmful?
Thousands died!

He listens to and will sometimes adjust his decisions in relation to the desires if the people and acts within an identifiable "code of conduct" (This is important as a dictator is sometimes described as "a ruler not restricted by a constitution or laws " which is not the case for YHWH).

You and I would agree that Rodrigo Duterte is a dictator who acts as if he is not bound by a code of conduct. Read the opening section of his wikipedia page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Duterte
and tell me how he is a mass murdering dictator not bound by a code of conduct...but your God acts within an identifiable code of conduct.
What happens if your God were to violate this code of conduct you claim he has? Would you no longer worship him? Or would you say that what he does is by default within the code, by mere virtue of him being God?

The Israelites as a nation freely agreed to the laws by which they would be governed and retained their freedom to leave at any time.

Remind the class please what happened whenever Israel no longer followed Jehovah's laws?

The biblical system could therefore be described as dictatorial but not tyrannical or oppressive. Such a thing has proven impossible for humans but is and has been demonstratably possible for Almighty God

Please explain how a person living under the rule of a leader who kills more people after his subjects complain he has killed others, is not being oppressed.
If someone complains to Duterte he's killing too many people, and his response is to kill other people, would you describe Duterte as being an oppressive dictator?

[showme]

[Replying to post 1 by StuartJ]

The U.S. is not a "Democracy", it is a Republic, based on the Constitution (the law), and that law is executed by the Executive Branch, advised by the Judicial Branch to make sure the Executive branch actions fall within the law. The bible has both kings, the executive branch, and Judges, the judicial branch, who interpret those laws. The only difference is in how those offices were filled. One drawback of the present Republic primer voting system, is the dead and non citizens often illegally vote for their representatives, who often vote as they please, regardless of who the citizens voted for. In the future system, the king will be appointed by God (Ezekiel 37:24), and the survivors among the nations will "worship the king" (Zechariah 14:16). If the survivors don't like it, they will have to pound dry sand (Zechariah 14:17).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by showme]

I would say that the Messianic kingdom is a universal royalty. If any do not like it they can choose not to live in the universe. People will always have the choice to live under divine rule or not live under divine rule.


JW

[marco]

[Replying to post 16 by showme]

I would say that the Messianic kingdom is a universal royalty. If any do not like it they can choose not to live in the universe. People will always have the choice to live under divine rule or not live under divine rule.

It is strange how heaven models itself on human systems. We have a king there and Jesus seems to be a Prime Minister and no doubt the Holy Spirit is a sort of treasurer. I know these terms are fictions just to make people comfortable with the unknown, but they don't do much to persude the doubter that there is any substance behind heavenly talk. I am glad that - democracy or not - the biblical autocrat isn't ruling any more.

[Bust Nak]

But in the meantime, maybe Benny Hinn would make the title "Pentecostal Theocrat" an object of universal veneration ...?

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[NervyGuy]

[Replying to post 12 by JehovahsWitness]

In the bible it is explicitly stated that God is a spirit. I believe this to mean he is not human.

Hi, JW. Forgive me if I've mangled this reply. It's my first attempt at posting here.

I think I heard you say earlier that God is the only one qualified to be dictator over the earth.

But if God is spirit, how will He be able to tell us how to behave?

Do you conceive of an earth without any bureaucracy? No human judges? No police? Just God guiding each one of us directly, spiritually?