"In the beginning God created ...."

[William]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

Often Christians argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation.

What is the difference between existing within a Reality Simulation and existing within a Creation?

[William]

Why not just conclude that our brains are the product of evolution, and we used our brains to invent mathematics?

Because that is what atheists believe and I am not an atheist.

The acceptance of evolution is not excusive to atheists. Even more problematic is the misunderstanding that all atheists accept evolution. The only thing common to all atheists is their lack of belief in god/gods.

While true, the point is nonetheless that if one does not believe in creator/creators [atheism] one also does not believe we exist within a created universe.
In relation to the argument [thread topic], yes - atheists must lack belief that we exist within a Simulated Reality [Creation].
I am open to any exceptions to the rule you might offer in argument...but the thread isn't specific to 'what is and what isn't atheism'.
I was simply pointing to a funny irony in the Christian argument...a theist using a line usually used by atheists..."the brain does it"...

More to the point, because most atheists think that the concept of a "Creation" is hogwash... silly.

How did you reach such a conclusion about all atheists? What data can you provide to support this claim?

See my explanation above. Lets not make this another thread about what makes an atheist an atheist. They can sort that conundrum out for themselves [come to some mutual agreement] and then present their case...in a thread designed for that purpose...

[PinSeeker]

This thread is focused upon the bulk of Christians who believe that they do indeed exist within a created universe.

Okay, so that's fine. What I don't get is -- and I'm speaking/asking very humbly, and gracefully, so far as possible -- what's your underlying purpose here? Because there does seem to be one. Yes, Christians believe they exist within a created universe. That's mainly because God says it's true, and Christians -- most, anyway -- completely take Him at His word. Right? So, why -- why -- is your focus "upon the bulk of Christians who believe that they do indeed exist within a created universe"? What is there even to discuss and/or debate? Are you trying to justify your own belief in a "simulated reality" rather than a "created universe"? And if so, what difference does it make, except for you to... I don't know... feel better about yourself?

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

I am attempting to understand why so MANY Christians believe that their God (of the Bible) created the universe we currently exist within but argue that it is not a simulated reality.

By definition a Created Universe is the same thing as a Simulated Reality.

Both are the result of a creator.

[PinSeeker]

I am attempting to understand why so MANY Christians believe that their God (of the Bible) created the universe we currently exist within but argue that it is not a simulated reality.

It's no mystery. I just told you. God said it, and Christians take Him at His word.

By definition a Created Universe is the same thing as a Simulated Reality. Both are the result of a creator.

Fair enough. So why do you call yourself an "agnostic"? It's a little strange to me, really, to be perfectly honest with you -- you say that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, but you seem to be trying really hard to make a distinction between the two. Why is that distinction so important for you to make?

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

I am attempting to understand why so MANY Christians believe that their God (of the Bible) created the universe we currently exist within but argue that it is not a simulated reality.

It's no mystery. I just told you. God said it, and Christians take Him at His word.

By definition a Created Universe is the same thing as a Simulated Reality. Both are the result of a creator.

Fair enough. So why do you call yourself an "agnostic"? It's a little strange to me, really, to be perfectly honest with you -- you say that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, but you seem to be trying really hard to make a distinction between the two. Why is that distinction so important for you to make?

Grace and peace to you.

Grapes and peas to you

"God said it in the Bible" that we exist within a Simulation. The Bible just uses the word "Creation". Are you trying to argue that "God" said that we don't exist within a Simulated Reality?

For the sake of giving each other our positions in order to facilitate understanding of different perspectives, I refer to my position as "Agnostic Theist" which is to say that I agree that we could be existing within a Creation and thus agree that this requires a Creator.
You are confused as to what I am saying. I do not think there is ANY distinction between the words "Creation" and "Simulation" and am asking why Christians claim the two are not the same thing.

You have pointed out that there are Christians [such as yourself?] who do not see a distinction. In that case, we both agree and there is nothing to argue or be confused about.

Otherwise, you do think there is a distinction but for some reason have projected that onto your image of me and then you complain that the image of me that you have, is saying there is a distinction.

Maybe so. But I myself am not claiming there is a distinction. I am claiming that there is no distinction. Please refrain from any further projections you have of me and focus on what I am actually saying. It will ultimately lesson the element of confusion you appear to have in that regard.

[PinSeeker]

"God said it in the Bible" that we exist within a Simulation. The Bible just uses the word "Creation".

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). I appreciate your assertion, but it's not correct by any stretch of the imagination.

Are you trying to argue that "God" said that we don't exist within a Simulated Reality?

Well I don't have to "argue" at all. It is what it is. Again, anyone can think what they like. But, God created the heavens and the earth. See above.

For the sake of giving each other our positions in order to facilitate understanding of different perspectives, I refer to my position as "Agnostic Theist" which is to say that I agree that we could be existing within a Creation and thus agree that this requires a Creator.

Fine. I don't really care what you call yourself. But I pose the question(s) again: Why do you call yourself an "agnostic theist"? Not that it's any big honkin' deal, but why? And like I said, it's a little strange (quite strange, actually) to me, really, to be perfectly honest with you -- you say that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, but you seem to be trying really hard to make a distinction between the two. Why is that distinction so important for you to make?

You are confused as to what I am saying. I do not think there is ANY distinction between the words "Creation" and "Simulation" and am asking why Christians claim the two are not the same thing.

In my last post -- and now this one; see directly above -- I acknowledge you assertion that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, so quite obviously, I do in fact understand what you are saying. And maybe there are some Christians who claim the two are not the same thing, but again, my assertion is that the whole idea of a "simulated reality" is just silly. We don't live in a video game.

You have pointed out that there are Christians [such as yourself?] who do not see a distinction.

No, you posted that. Again, I posted -- now a third time -- that there may be some Christians who see no distinction between the two But to me, the comparison, whether one sees a difference between the two or not, is silly. It's like comparing World War II and Mortal Kombat. It's silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate.

Maybe so. But I myself am not claiming there is a distinction. I am claiming that there is no distinction.

Fine. With all due respect, I don't really care, my friend. Surely, I have no problem with you thinking what you want. Grace and peace to you.

Please refrain from any further projections you have of me and focus on what I am actually saying. It will ultimately lesson the element of confusion you appear to have in that regard.

LOL! Grace and peace to you, William.

[William]

"God said it in the Bible" that we exist within a Simulation. The Bible just uses the word "Creation".

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). I appreciate your assertion, but it's not correct

Why is it 'not correct'?

Are you trying to argue that "God" said that we don't exist within a Simulated Reality?

Well I don't have to "argue" at all. It is what it is. Again, anyone can think what they like. But, God created the heavens and the earth.

That is a claim which the OP is not focused on. Who or Which being created the physical universe [the metaphysical one is not the focus of this thread either] is not under question.

The idea that it was created allows us to understand that it is a simulation, because if it is a creation then it must be a simulation.

you say that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, but you seem to be trying really hard to make a distinction between the two. Why is that distinction so important for you to make?

As I explained. I see no distinction between 'created' and 'simulated'.
Your misconception of what I am 'trying really hard' to do, is not relevant to the thread question where clearly I am asking why Christians are the ones making the distinction and the question is 'why' they do so. Why are Christians okay with calling the universe a "creation" but distinctly not okay with calling it a 'Simulation'?

You are confused as to what I am saying. I do not think there is ANY distinction between the words "Creation" and "Simulation" and am asking why Christians claim the two are not the same thing.

In my last post -- and now this one; see directly above -- I acknowledge you assertion that a "created universe" and a "simulated reality" are the same thing, so quite obviously, I do in fact understand what you are saying. And maybe there are some Christians who claim the two are not the same thing, but again, my assertion is that the whole idea of a "simulated reality" is just silly. We don't live in a video game.

So something of an answer to the question is that Christians do not like the idea of 'living in a game'. Thanks for clearing that up.

You have pointed out that there are Christians [such as yourself?] who do not see a distinction.

No, you posted that. Again, I posted -- now a third time -- that there may be some Christians who see no distinction between the two But to me, the comparison, whether one sees a difference between the two or not, is silly. It's like comparing World War II and Mortal Kombat. It's silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate.

I disagree.

One can see plainly that Christians believe they are fighting a battle - a war. Some even think that this war started way before the creation of this universe.

It is no great leap of assumption to understand that if such were the case, then this universe was created specifically for the purpose of fighting that war, and Christian mythology supports that assumption.

If Christian mythology is merely something silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate...then one can dispense with the idea we live in a creation/simulation and get on with being sensible.

[PinSeeker]

"God said it in the Bible" that we exist within a Simulation. The Bible just uses the word "Creation".

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). I appreciate your assertion, but it's not correct

Why is it 'not correct'?

Because it's very clearly, William, not what God said.

Are you trying to argue that "God" said that we don't exist within a Simulated Reality?

]Well I don't have to "argue" at all. It is what it is. Again, anyone can think what they like. But, God created the heavens and the earth.

That is a claim which the OP is not focused on.

Well first, it's not a "claim," per se, as if it were just some random opinion. God said what He said. Some believe Him, and some don't. But there is really no debate to be had on that. As I said, it is what it is, and that will remain the case. And second, that may not be what the OP is focused on, but it is directly applicable, regardless of any desire to avoid it.

Who or Which being created the physical universe [the metaphysical one is not the focus of this thread either] is not under question.

As I said, fair enough. But again, it is directly applicable.

The idea that it was created allows us to understand that it is a simulation, because if it is a creation then it must be a simulation.

And yet again, I appreciate your opinion. Mine differs (for the reasons already mentioned). But that's okay, right?

Your misconception of what I am 'trying really hard' to do, is not relevant to the thread...

I think either you're avoiding any kind of introspection. Or you don't even realize your own intentions. Or both. But that's okay; we can drop this, because regardless, frankly, I don't care.

...the question where clearly I am asking why Christians are the ones making the distinction and the question is 'why' they do so. Why are Christians okay with calling the universe a "creation" but distinctly not okay with calling it a 'Simulation'?

How many times is this now? I've lost count. Oh well... because God said He created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1). Hey just a rhetorical question here, but if it were a "simulation," what might you say it is a simulation of? Interesting, no?

So something of an answer to the question is that Christians do not like the idea of 'living in a game'. Thanks for clearing that up.

LOL! Well, to someone who was actually participating in a discussion -- you know, instead of trying to turn someone's comments into something they are not -- the realization would quickly be that the video game reference was intended to convey the inanity of the assertion previously made.

You have pointed out that there are Christians [such as yourself?] who do not see a distinction.

No, you posted that. Again, I posted -- now a third time -- that there may be some Christians who see no distinction between the two But to me, the comparison, whether one sees a difference between the two or not, is silly. It's like comparing World War II and Mortal Kombat. It's silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate.

I disagree.

Well of course you do.

One can see plainly that Christians believe they are fighting a battle - a war.

Some get a little "competitive," maybe, and discussions may get heated from time to time. Nothing really wrong with that; it happens in debates. But "a war"? LOL. Nah. But even if we allow that, I would say the "war" is being fought just as fervently from the other side of the fence. And, honestly, William, you seem to be fighting it, which... I mean, I'm perfectly fine with; it presents no issue for me.

Some even think that this war started way before the creation of this universe.

Yeah, maybe; as I said, there are all kinds of "thoughts" out there...

It is no great leap of assumption to understand that if such were the case, then this universe was created specifically for the purpose of fighting that war...

Now this is interesting. Yes, in a way, I would agree. Yeah, I mean, the Bible is very clear that everything God does -- and this includes His creation of the heavens and earth, of course -- is for His own glory... His very purpose as God and Creator is to bring glory to Himself. And since the Fall -- as documented in Genesis 3 -- God has purposed to reconcile God to Himself by giving Himself and accomplishing on behalf of man what man cannot do, is incapable of doing, for himself. And this is, in one word (or a couple) what the Bible is all about: salvation, reconciliation, redemption -- of, by, and for God and His glory, and our glory in Him. So yes, it is a spiritual war. And the great thing is, as the Bible says -- specifically Revelation -- God wins. Actually, He both has already won, and will win. We already know the endgame. Or at least some of us do...

...and Christian mythology supports that assumption.

If Christian mythology is merely something silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate...then one can dispense with the idea we live in a creation/simulation and get on with being sensible.

LOL! I'm all for being sensible; that has been a point I've made several times in this, um, exchange. Grace and peace to you.

[William]

"God said it in the Bible" that we exist within a Simulation. The Bible just uses the word "Creation".

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). I appreciate your assertion, but it's not correct

Why is it 'not correct'?

Because it's very clearly, William, not what God said.

I didn't say that any god said it. I said that the Bible say's it.

Are you trying to argue that "God" said that we don't exist within a Simulated Reality?

Well I don't have to "argue" at all. It is what it is. Again, anyone can think what they like. But, God created the heavens and the earth.

That is a claim which the OP is not focused on.

Well first, it's not a "claim," per se, as if it were just some random opinion. God said what He said. Some believe Him, and some don't.

The bible made the claim and those who believe in the bible claim that this is how their god 'say's' things. I just used the biblical quotation in relation to the word 'created' and the Christian belief that we are in a creation.
If the god did indeed tell Christians through the Bible that he created the universe, then that is to say that the god said he simulated the universe, because these are the same thing.

But there is really no debate to be had on that. As I said, it is what it is, and that will remain the case. And second, that may not be what the OP is focused on, but it is directly applicable, regardless of any desire to avoid it.

One cannot avoid the idea that if we exist within a creation/simulation that this implies there must be a creator/creators of said simulation.
So I am not avoiding anything. I am wanting to place the horse before the cart. If we do not exist within a simulation/creation then there is no requirement to assume there is a creator as there is nothing to 'avoid' in relation to that question.

Who or Which being created the physical universe [the metaphysical one is not the focus of this thread either] is not under question.

As I said, fair enough. But again, it is directly applicable.

The egg must be cracked before the yoke can be seen. One follows the other. First establish it is indeed a creation/simulation, THEN sort out the question of the creator...

The idea that it was created allows us to understand that it is a simulation, because if it is a creation then it must be a simulation.

And yet again, I appreciate your opinion. Mine differs (for the reasons already mentioned). But that's okay, right?

I agree. First establish it is indeed a creation/simulation, THEN sort out the question of the creator...that's sensible, right?

One can see plainly that Christians believe they are fighting a battle - a war.

Some get a little "competitive," maybe, and discussions may get heated from time to time. Nothing really wrong with that; it happens in debates. But "a war"?

But the Christian god - through the Bible - does indeed say that you are participating in a war and that the war is not 'real' [flesh and blood'] but 'spiritual' - it just transfers/projects itself as a real experience through the creation/simulation.

I would say the "war" is fought just as fervently on the other side of the fence.

What 'other side of the fence are you referring to?'

Some even think that this war started way before the creation of this universe.

Yeah, maybe; as I said, there are all kinds of "thoughts" out there...

Some even claim there are a creators 'thoughts' out there...all in all very messy and what one would expect to find in warfare. Real or just simulated to appear real, is the question re the thread topic

It is no great leap of assumption to understand that if such were the case, then this universe was created specifically for the purpose of fighting that war...

Now this is interesting. Yes, in a way, I would agree. Yeah, I mean, the Bible is very clear that everything God does -- and this includes His creation of the heavens and earth, of course -- is for His own glory... His very purpose as God and Creator is to bring glory to Himself. And since the Fall -- as documented in Genesis 3 -- God has purposed to reconcile God to Himself by giving Himself and accomplishing on behalf of man what man cannot do, is incapable of doing, for himself. And this is, in one word (or a couple) what the Bible is all about: salvation, reconciliation, redemption -- of, by, and for God and His glory, and our glory in Him. So yes, it is a spiritual war. And the great thing is, as the Bible says -- specifically Revelation -- God wins. Actually, He both has already won, and will win. We already know the endgame. Or at least some of us do...

This is great! For a moment there I thought we were not going to agree.
So then back to the OP - with that in mind.


Premise:

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

Statement:

Often Christians argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation.

Question:

What is the difference between existing within a Reality Simulation and existing within a Creation?

If Christian mythology is merely something silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate...then one can dispense with the idea we live in a creation/simulation and get on with being sensible.

[PinSeeker]

I didn't say that any god said it. I said that the Bible say's it.

Yes, you said all that. And the Bible -- and thus God -- says absolutely nothing about any "simulation." As you are your own person, you can certainly hold to your own ideas -- and "ideas," as the case may be.

If Christian mythology is merely something silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate...then one can dispense with the idea we live in a creation/simulation and get on with being sensible.

But that's a big 'if,' though, William, is it not? It's a heart issue. Not to discount the brain/mind, of course, but the brain/mind follow the heart. And converting hearts is God's business, not man's. And it will happen -- or not happen -- in every man, all according to God's perfect, immutable, unassailable will, and in His time. As for Christians, whether they realize it or not, the struggle -- the war -- is internal. To put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul says. But this war is only fought -- again, internally -- if God has actually done His work in causing that to happen... if He has begun a good work in that person. But the good news about that is, if God does begin that work in the individual, He will -- will -- bring it to completion. He is the author and the perfecter/finisher of our faith.

I mean, read the Bible, and actually put forth some effort to understand it. Whether you are an agnostic or atheist or... anything else. It's not difficult. And it's worth it. But really, even if you remain in a position of unbelief, it's worth it for the knowledge and understanding gained, if nothing else. And, you know, scoff at this if you want, but humbly speaking, I would be glad to help in any way and/or direct you to some resources that would be helpful.

Grace and peace to you.