Who Let the Dogs Out?

[POI]

Theists will state Satan rules the roost here on earth. But someday, God will (contain/remove/isolate/other) him.

Imagine you possessed a very violent dog. He attacks or disrupts all animals and all people for which he encounters. Your only job is to contain him, by leash. You opt not to, citing free will or something other. Would you be considered wise?

For Debate:

Someday, God is going to contain Satan, but not yet. Why?

[TRANSPONDER]

Had a great portrait of him hee hee...I might try to copy and paste....

It would make a great avatar

Yea, it would... But I have been having difficulties adding any desired avatars, as the allotted space is too small

That's the problem I'm having.

...
Someday, God is going to contain Satan, but not yet. Why?

Maybe because people wanted to know evil by the hard way.

I can sorta get that, but it does rely SOooo heavily on 'God knows best'. The natural disasters, the natural situations that humans must regard with distaste, make no sense as the doings of a good god. It has to assume that this is all part of the god's plan and, even though He is morally perfect, he was obliged to do it that way to work out his plan. That was really the best he could do? Really? I suppose if one relies on Faith.....as a particularly denialist opponent on my former board put it: "God's plan is Good in the end, so it is Good, even it contains some bad." But I say what I told him - that may do for the believer, but is it going to convince those open to doubt and question? Doesn't it make sense that some of the horrors, frankly, of nature are evolved survival strategies without any moral element because nature does not do morals? Morals is a human invention, based on evolved instincts of pack co - operation and tribal ethics, but is not a universal law, natural or god -given (name your own, of course) but is a human construct. But, like art, music and the etiquette of queuing, it is no less valid, for all that.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

These questions assume God and Satan exist, so I will answer accordingly and hope not to hear someone ask for evidence of God or Satan as a response.

Imagine you possessed a very violent dog. He attacks or disrupts all animals and all people for which he encounters. Your only job is to contain him, by leash. You opt not to, citing free will or something other. Would you be considered wise?

That depends. If it is your desire to bring harm to humans, you could opt not to lock the dog up. That might be wise.

Someday, God is going to contain Satan, but not yet. Why?

If God exists and Satan exists, theists do not need to know the answer to this question. It poses no threat to the existence of God or Satan.

With that said, I will offer a possible answer.

1. Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.

Before Jesus, the purpose was just to show men their weakness and need for God's grace via obedience of the law like sacrifices that pointed to Jesus.

[1213]

...Do you have to experience rape, torture, etc, to truly know that you do not want it, or that it is bad/'evil'?

I don't.

[POI]

That depends.

Depends on what? God cares for everyone equally, doesn't he? How would unleashing the 'beast' be wise?

If God exists and Satan exists, theists do not need to know the answer to this question. It poses no threat to the existence of God or Satan.

It may not immediately disprove their existence, but it sure raises logical question(s). Such as:

1. Why would a loving and caring god unleash meyham upon his loving creation?
2. Why does he only protect people sometimes (at best, if at all)?
3. Why wait to contain it, when he knows it's bad not to contain it?

Your answer below does not fly, logically.

1. Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.

But this does not logically follow. Many die prior to any acknowledgement of theodicy. And/or, according to Christians, we are already given the knowledge of good/evil. Further, people can turn to Jesus without having experienced 'evil'. Further still, you do not need to personally experience every type of 'evil' to know that it IS 'evil'.

[POI]

...Do you have to experience rape, torture, etc, to truly know that you do not want it, or that it is bad/'evil'?

I don't.

Then you probably agree with most/all. So why doesn't God contain it, if you will still deem it the same, (as evil), after experiencing it?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

These questions assume God and Satan exist, so I will answer accordingly and hope not to hear someone ask for evidence of God or Satan as a response.

Imagine you possessed a very violent dog. He attacks or disrupts all animals and all people for which he encounters. Your only job is to contain him, by leash. You opt not to, citing free will or something other. Would you be considered wise?

That depends. If it is your desire to bring harm to humans, you could opt not to lock the dog up. That might be wise.

Someday, God is going to contain Satan, but not yet. Why?

If God exists and Satan exists, theists do not need to know the answer to this question. It poses no threat to the existence of God or Satan.

With that said, I will offer a possible answer.

1. Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.

Before Jesus, the purpose was just to show men their weakness and need for God's grace via obedience of the law like sacrifices that pointed to Jesus.

That hardly suffices. Since we have a God -given moral code, written 'on our hearts' and an individul slice of the Cosmic Intelligence to provide our reasoning ability, since the whole apple -scrumping episode and a global destruction of anything other than Noah's family and whatever critters they could cram on the boat, and given God constantly getting His Prophets to download his orders and berate humayniy about its' shortcomings, Satan and his minions seems a bit otiose. Something of overkill; staff surplus to requirement. So much like the computer - upgrade thinktank who have to regularly fix what ain't broken (and make it worse) more to justify their yearly bonuses than accomplish any useful purpose, God should have known before he started spinning the BB Event out of Cosmic Stuff that having revolted, Satan would have to be found something to do to keep him out of mischief.

"Well bless my beard, Satan who is called the Devil is it? And what were you doing skulking behind my throne, eh? Planning another revolt, perhaps?"

"Lord bless you God, no, I was just ...sweeping the golden floor..."

"I have Zen Buddhists to do that..tell me, what did you hear?"

"Oh please Lord, don't turn me into anything...unnatural..."

"Nothing more unnatural that a fallen angel, Stan, you just up and answer Him right away."

"Well..I heard something about a betrothed virgin, 12 blokes living off the money of a bunch of women and something about the Good News of the coming destruction of the world..."

"And what else did you hear?"

"That Mr. Jesus here is going to be crucified. And I was so upset..."

"....That you blasphemed the Holy Spirit Well I have thought of something to shut your mouth and punish you proprly for listening."

"Oh no sir, not the comfy...."

"You shall go to earth with Jesus, here, and get humanity into another fine mess."

"What, me go and see all the vices and wickedness of mankind? Hooray, Lord!"

Year he makes more sense as God's gofor than God's opponent.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:40 pm
1. Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.
But this does not logically follow. Many die prior to any acknowledgement of theodicy. And/or, according to Christians, we are already given the knowledge of good/evil. Further, people can turn to Jesus without having experienced 'evil'. Further still, you do not need to personally experience every type of 'evil' to know that it IS 'evil'.

You have not shown how it is illogical. You might think you have, but you have not. If you die without God, you failed the test of overcoming evil. You still have a chance in purgatory if you make it there. I said nothing about knowledge of good and evil. We must overcome the temptations of evil and turn to Jesus. No one can turn to Jesus without being tempted by evil. By the time a person is old enough to understand and turn to Jesus, he has already been tempted by evil.

I did not say you must experience every type of evil. I said Satan and his demons ensure that you are tempted with evil to expose your weaknesses.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:40 pm
1. Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.
But this does not logically follow. Many die prior to any acknowledgement of theodicy. And/or, according to Christians, we are already given the knowledge of good/evil. Further, people can turn to Jesus without having experienced 'evil'. Further still, you do not need to personally experience every type of 'evil' to know that it IS 'evil'.

You have not shown how it is illogical. You might think you have, but you have not. If you die without God, you failed the test of overcoming evil. You still have a chance in purgatory if you make it there. I said nothing about knowledge of good and evil. We must overcome the temptations of evil and turn to Jesus. No one can turn to Jesus without being tempted by evil. By the time a person is old enough to understand and turn to Jesus, he has already been tempted by evil.

I did not say you must experience every type of evil. I said Satan and his demons ensure that you are tempted with evil to expose your weaknesses.

Disgusting; it may even be insulting. Are you really saying that the way of overcoming Evil or Sin is to be 'with' God. I've posted it before -being good or bad isn't what gets you into heaven, but being in the right club. Disgusting. I won't even deal with the rest as that's pretty disgusting too, and I don't know whether it's a proddy cultural background, decades of atheism or that I know a sludgepit on sight even when flowers are growing over it that the whole Purgatory thing, and getting the kids diseased in order to peddle them the nostrum claiming it'll cure them just makes me feel dirty even thinking about Catholicism.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #14]

And for those that might read this thread. Something can be logical yet untrue. Here is an example. The following is untrue, but logical because the conclusion is logical.

1. All humans are Christians
2. Poi is a human.
Therefore, Poi is a Christian.

This is a logical conclusion. It is a valid argument. However, it is not sound because the first premise is untrue. It is a logical conclusion, though, because it is logically valid. If the premises are true, then the conclusion must follow.

So the question Poi asked is

Someday, God is going to contain Satan, but not yet. Why?

My goal is to show logically how if my premises are true, then my conclusion follows. My conclusion is to answer this question, why God doesn't contain Satan yet, or why God allows Satan to tempt humans.

Satan and his demons exist and are not locked away yet to offer the full temptations of evil to humans, so we can see our weaknesses and turn to Jesus. In turning to Jesus he grants us grace to overcome the devil.

This is my answer.

So it goes like this.
1. Satan and Demons exist to offer the full temptations of evil to humans.
2. Being tempted exposes our weaknesses so we can turn to Jesus.
3. By turning to Jesus, God grants us grace.
4. (implied) God desires us to have grace.
therefore God doesn't lock up Satan yet.

To show this is illogical, you need to show how the conclusion cannot follow from the premises. Showing that you disagree with a premise doesn't accomplish that.

God wishes us to have his grace. If we turn to Jesus, he will grant us grace. We turn to Jesus by being exposed to evil temptations. We are exposed to evil temptations because Satan and Demons tempt us, so God doesn't lock up Satan yet.

You can disagree with premise 2 and claim that you can come to Jesus without being tempted but that doesn't show how the argument is illogical. Just like you can disagree with premise 1 of the first argument (all humans are Christians), but that doesn't show how the argument is illogical.

If we then see the argument is valid, thus logical, then we can move on to seeing if it is sound. Of course, a much easier way to challenge the soundness of the argument is to reject Satan existence in premise 1 or God's existence in premise 3. Or Jesus' existence in premise 2 for that matter.

But the thread wasn't started for the purpose of proving Satan. It was started to see why God doesn't lock Satan up, and I have shown 1 logical reason why he would.

If it is illogical, you need to show how if my premises are true the conclusion doesn't follow.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #18]

I don't see how anything you said should make me pause and consider it. It is clearly just an emotional outburst.