Thoughts from Beyond the Borders of DC&R...

[mister_lee]

I found this posted on a blog by one of my favorite hip-hop groups, Jedi Mind Tricks. I spend a lot of time reading posts of this board and truly I get a lot out of it. What I found interesting was the scope of certain feelings, conceptions or misconceptions about Christians, especially those labeled fundamentalist.

Here is the top ten list as related by a member of the group:

Fundamentalist Christians

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Questions for Debate:

1) Disregarding personal beliefs about biblical stories, Christians, in general profess that Christianity is a religion of love. If nearly all Christians agree with this notion. why are there so many people, some even believers in Christ, that view the religion, and many followers, as anything but loving?

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

There is undoubtedly a little bias here, but the labels are not without warrant entirely.

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

[katiej49]

THis could be an interesting thread, but as there is really no topic for debate, I am moving it to Random Ramblings.

The questions for debate were listed at the bottom:

Questions for Debate:

1) Disregarding personal beliefs about biblical stories, Christians, in general profess that Christianity is a religion of love. If nearly all Christians agree with this notion. why are there so many people, some even believers in Christ, that view the religion, and many followers, as anything but loving?

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

There is undoubtedly a little bias here, but the labels are not without warrant entirely.

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

i've known many loving and caring Christians throughout my entire life. i also dont know a single Christian who hates gays (spare me the examples of the extreme fanatics who stand on corners and hold "god hates fags" signs, they are not the norm and everyone knows that) ......i've known Christians who do all kinds of charitable work with the poor, in hospitals, non profit groups......and who quietly show the love of Christ to others. where do you get the idea that most Christians are not loving?

When it comes to 'hate gays', I only have actions and words in the forums to judge people by. From my observation, there are christians on this very forum, who will deny they 'hate' gays, but their actions and words makes that very claim a model of hypocracy.[/quote

give me a specific example. i've never seen any Christian here say they hate gays.

[katiej49]

There had been instances for me that I think really brought the integrity of the christian mindset into question. Such as that at my high school, students could still go to school being from other religions as long as they signed a declaration of faith.

So ironically, the best basketball player on the team was mormon. Other parents from other schools found out, and actually came with signs saying that he was going to hell, and boo'd him everytime he stepped on court.

I think what's at fault there is more the collected mass of people. Being that when a lot of people are together without any knowingly agreeable concensious they tend to look like id
Individually, we can find a more rational or irrational sense of behavior. But with christianity, people are looking more for bad apples, as they would any religion.

When we encounter a political standpoint, I think is where the ideas get sketchy, because people back their opinions and views on a religious standpoint. And whenever I have a heated conversation face to face, it ALWAYS goes back to the root of the belief system.

Not to say this is bad, but it's one thing that really bothers me. I know what christians believe on the topic, I want to hear what that person actually believes from a general standpoint.

Something to the effect of "well I know that in the bible it says homosexuality is wrong, but I'm still a firm believer of equality."

The majority of the time it seems that when anyone of any religion uses propaganda to influence their political party, these topics just become more and more a problem in making people look bad. And that could be said on both sides.

But the comments illustrated do seem overly judgemental.[/quote]


what do you mean what they believe from a general standpoint? what does that mean exactly? as far as the folks who booed a kid, they were nuts of course....you certainly cant blame an entire religion for the dumb actions of a few

[Zzyzx]

....you certainly cant blame an entire religion for the dumb actions of a few

Famous lost words -- the same thing that is said in an attempt to cover the despicable actions of the Christian church for a thousand years of the Dark and Middle ages when Christian theocracy ruled (ruined) Europe and beyond.

When a religion is called to task for massive blunders it can always claim that it was "the dumb actions of a few".

Honesty might be a better policy.

[twobitsmedia]

....you certainly cant blame an entire religion for the dumb actions of a few

Famous lost words -- the same thing that is said in an attempt to cover the despicable actions of the Christian church for a thousand years of the Dark and Middle ages when Christian theocracy ruled (ruined) Europe and beyond.

When a religion is called to task for massive blunders it can always claim that it was "the dumb actions of a few".

Honesty might be a better policy.

Hmmm, Yeah, and after World War II, the military tribunals should have executed all the Germans, not just the Nazi leadership.

[bernee51]

....you certainly cant blame an entire religion for the dumb actions of a few

Famous lost words -- the same thing that is said in an attempt to cover the despicable actions of the Christian church for a thousand years of the Dark and Middle ages when Christian theocracy ruled (ruined) Europe and beyond.

When a religion is called to task for massive blunders it can always claim that it was "the dumb actions of a few".

Honesty might be a better policy.

Hmmm, Yeah, and after World War II, the military tribunals should have executed all the Germans, not just the Nazi leadership.

They only managed to try and convict the ones that were'nt given travel papers and smuggled out of Germany by the Vatican.

[Easyrider]

Fundamentalist Christians 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

Hey, I'm used to their denials. Beats the heck out someone thinking that 5,000 different gods are individually ruling the universe.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

Considering the absurdity and impossible odds of abiogenesis, divine creation looks pretty good as an alternative.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

Allah is fiction. God had his reasons and instituted divine Justice.

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

Come to the truth and you too will know the difference between myths and the reality of Christ.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

Bull. There's plenty of old earth creationists.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

Whoever wrote this thinks it must be loving and tolerant to diss the Great King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, and basically call him a liar when he said that "no one comes to the father except through me."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

Sounds like Michael Moore talk. As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

Hey, God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is no.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian[/i][/b].

From what I've seen around here the atheists and skeptics have pretty much butchered up whatever they think they know about the Bible.

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

Next time they're down and out maybe they can try to locate a "Bitter Atheist's Homeless Shelter."

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

Love does not rejoice in iniquity. But we can all do better, no doubt.

[Zzyzx]

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Thank you for posting this from the blog you mentioned. It is very close to the truth in many or most instances, IMO; particularly as applied to the "god squad" of vocal "christian warriors" who are self-anointed to "defend the faith" or to "save" the "infidels" (or kill them "for their own good" and "in the name of god").

Of course, the vocal ones will not see themselves in that mirror and will attempt to defend or justify their attitudes and actions -- in an exercise in denial. Most will never see the inconsistencies and contridictions -- indoctrination removes the ability to apply reason, logic and common sense.

[katiej49]

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Thank you for posting this from the blog you mentioned. It is very close to the truth in many or most instances, IMO; particularly as applied to the "god squad" of vocal "christian warriors" who are self-anointed to "defend the faith" or to "save" the "infidels" (or kill them "for their own good" and "in the name of god").

Of course, the vocal ones will not see themselves in that mirror and will attempt to defend or justify their attitudes and actions -- in an exercise in denial. Most will never see the inconsistencies and contridictions -- indoctrination removes the ability to apply reason, logic and common sense.

does that include those deeply indocrinated by atheistic beliefs? look...you obviously have a strong aversion to Christianity and its followers...nothing i say can change that.....i have no idea what to say to you.......we are both of us, you and me, two human beings who desire meaning and purpose in life......i am not sure what brings you here each day to discuss a God who you deny...i hope you do keep coming and discussing......but......what can i say to you? i dont know. so i will say i pray you find what your heart desires most....blessings

[Easyrider]

Thank you for posting this from the blog you mentioned. It is very close to the truth in many or most instances...

It's a load of hooey for the most part.

, IMO; particularly as applied to the "god squad" of vocal "christian warriors" who are self-anointed to "defend the faith" or to "save" the "infidels" (or kill them "for their own good" and "in the name of god").

Seems to me you sleep pretty safely in a nation comprised of some 80% or more Christians. Anyone beating down your door?

Of course, the vocal ones will not see themselves in that mirror and will attempt to defend or justify their attitudes and actions -- in an exercise in denial. Most will never see the inconsistencies and contridictions -- indoctrination removes the ability to apply reason, logic and common sense.

This shows the arrogance of the elitist rationalists: Christians are "indoctrinated" but you are the learned and scholarly possessors of the "truth." LOL!

[Zzyzx]

Thank you for posting this from the blog you mentioned. It is very close to the truth in many or most instances...

It's a load of hooey for the most part.

If so, it should be disputed with evidence. Have a go at it.

, IMO; particularly as applied to the "god squad" of vocal "christian warriors" who are self-anointed to "defend the faith" or to "save" the "infidels" (or kill them "for their own good" and "in the name of god").

Seems to me you sleep pretty safely in a nation comprised of some 80% or more Christians. Anyone beating down your door?

Is "sleeping safe" insured by Christianity????? Does that hold true for the predominantly Christian nations of South and Central America?

Are Non-Christian nations somehow "less safe" for sleeping?

I personally served in the US military (as a Non-Christian) fifty years ago. That might be somehow related to "sleeping safe". A 12 gauge near at hand is also some additional insurance of my safety.

I am darn sure not indebted to Christianity for my safety.

Of course, the vocal ones will not see themselves in that mirror and will attempt to defend or justify their attitudes and actions -- in an exercise in denial. Most will never see the inconsistencies and contridictions -- indoctrination removes the ability to apply reason, logic and common sense.

This shows the arrogance of the elitist rationalists: Christians are "indoctrinated" but you are the learned and scholarly possessors of the "truth." LOL!

We "learned and scholarly" that oppose "blind faith" in these threads do not appear to be indoctrinated into any particular belief pattern. We tend to dismiss claims of invisible super beings up in the sky and claims of "miracles". That seems to irritate those who "believe on faith alone" that those things are real -- but who can't show any evidence that what they say is true.

It appears from what is said in posts and the way it is said that the most vocal and "in your face" Christians do not have any corner on the market of education or knowledge. The emotional appeals that are thrown up in defense of "the faith" abandon reason, logic and common sense in favor of superstition, myth, unsupportable claims, and wishful thinking that cannot be shown to be real.

The most common Christian "argument" appears to be to attack the PERSON who disputes their claims, rather than attempting to discuss ideas -- or to quote their holey book to people who reject it as being fiction, fable or fraud.

I, personally, appreciate the efforts of the "god squad" (the self-anointed vocal, "guardians of the faith") to champion their faith by angry, hostile, ad hominem attacks; and obviously illogical "arguments" -- because doing so discredits their cause in public. I encourage those who discredit their own superstition, supernaturalism, and mystical thinking -- particularly public, organized, commercial religion.