What is the value of Desire?

[BeHereNow]

There is profit in desires – for so they are increased. And indeed, Nathaniel, each one of my desires has enriched me more than the always deceitful possession of the object of my desire.
Andre Gide

What is the value of desire?
My philosophy tells me that I need to remove all suffering in my life. At the root of suffering is desire. If I desire to have (fill in the blank) it will lead to unhappiness and suffering.
By “fill in the blank” I do not mean just material things. If I desire wisdom, I am as likely to be as unhappy as if I desire a new Mercedes. It is the desire that causes the problems, not the “things”. Not what is or is not out there, but what is in me.
By “suffering” I mean unhappiness. It does not have to be gut wrenching agony.
Distinguishing between desire and motivation can be dicey. I think it is good to be motivated to live in a clean house. I will do those daily activities which add to the cleanliness of my surroundings. However, if I am a POW it does me no good to desire a clean hut. If circumstances put me in a flea infested, filth hole of a cage, it does me no good to desire marble floors. I need to accept the world I live in and the circumstances I have been given.

BTW, a special thanks to Corvus for giving me the motivation to start this thread.

[ST88]

The meaning I am looking for is not why I desire the orange, but what does it mean in my own mythos of myself that I would desire the orange.

Are you saying why do I desire the desire to have an orange? I have the feeling I am misreading, if not, I only understand the concept on a superficial lever. I need some help.

What I mean is, if the desire is analyzed at a superficial level, we may say that, being a rancher of apples, I have grown tired of the apple and want to try something different. OK so far, but why have I grown tired of them? There are things I doubt I will ever grow tired of: sex, staring at the ocean, chocolate cake, among others. Is this strictly a biological issue, where my taste buds have become inured to the particular sweetness of apples? Or is it a psychological issue that I have become more curious about oranges? I won't know without experimentation.

but the actual desire that I feel has nothing to do with irises

Problems understanding this. I think this falls back on my last query. Not the irises, not the desire for the irises, but the mythos behind the desire?

This is what I think I mean. In terms of the me that I know, how does it fit in with other things that I like and I dislike. I like sunflowers. I dislike geraniums. I like ranunculus. I dislike anemones. It's curious to me that I would have these reactions to different plants that are roughly equal in their plant value. Some I can understand on a superficial level. Geraniums smell like a dead French tobacconist when they get wet. Anemones contain poisons that are deadly to many pets. I can intellectualize the ones that appear to my senses to be distasteful, for lack of a better word. But what of my dislike for the Mexican shell flower? Or the Indian Hawthorne? And why do I like Kalanchoe and Cuphea but not Poinsettias or Petunias? I know the likes and dislikes, and they have changed over time. But I always wonder about the why, and I think this taps into something within myself that says something about me as a person. These questions do not consume me, but I find them interesting enough to ponder from time to time. I hope they go beyond mere navel-gazing and have something to say about what makes us human.

Happiness without desire is a different type of happiness than you present.

True, but then I could say the same thing about happiness with desire. They are different. I admit I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of happiness without desire, but I'm prepared to accept that it exists. Even so, it would be part of the human condition, just as desire is. Why should we deny ourselves the fruits of our humanity? We would have to reconcile our two world-views in order to answer this question, which, like you say, is probably not possible.

[nikolayevich]

How is it possible to eliminate desire and remain selfless? (charitable, giving, etc)

The elimination of desire as prescribed by various religions or world view systems, often involves a quest of personal change which shuts others out of one's life, and in ways which are painful (i.e. add to suffering) for others and thus selfish.

Perhaps one of the greatest examples of this is the quest that Sidhartha (Buddha) himself embarked on at the beginning of his journey. He had a wife and son- both of whom he abandoned to find enlightenment.

Is not the process of eliminating one's own suffering really just the avoidance of suffering? One might feel enlightened and without suffering, but does one not see the suffering of others which cannot be willed to stop, and by our humanity do we not suffer that they suffer? How can we cause pain to others in our "path to enlightenment" and say that we have eliminated suffering. We have only eliminated perhaps our own suffering.

Is it healthy to avoid the desire of safety for others, world peace, and love between one another?

I would say that the value of desire for good things is priceless.

[BeHereNow]

ST88
Thank you for the additional comments. Very helpful.
There seem to be many proponents of this Philosophy of Desire. Are there some you favor over others?

nikolayevich

How is it possible to eliminate desire and remain selfless? (charitable, giving, etc)

The selfless you refer to is the altruistic “caring for others” selfless. One realizes their selflessness by doing altruistic deeds. Buddhist selflessness is a denial of the self. A recognizing that I am not more important in the scheme of things that any other person, possibly no more important than any living thing. Taken to an extreme one would become a vegan of sorts. Taken more lightly one consumes previously living things much like the kosher aspects of Judaism. Having a reverence for all living things and realizing they gave their life for our nourishment. If one can attain selflessness, altruism naturally flows forth. If I have little, I may be able to give little. The widow’s mite.

The elimination of desire as prescribed by various religions or world view systems, often involves a quest of personal change which shuts others out of one's life, and in ways which are painful (i.e. add to suffering) for others and thus selfish. Perhaps one of the greatest examples of this is the quest that Siddhartha (Buddha) himself embarked on at the beginning of his journey. He had a wife and son- both of whom he abandoned to find enlightenment.

Yes, another man coming much later instructed his followers to do the same thing [Matt.19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.] No, Buddha is not Jesus, but the principle is the same. To say Siddhartha abandoned his family is a bit strong. He was independently wealthy and left them all that he had. They would want for nothing except the company of Siddhartha. If Siddhartha was anything he was compassionate. Compassionate from birth. This is obvious by the events leading up to this abandonment you mention. We have no details but I am confident he handled the situation appropriately. We have no reason not to believe his wife knew what was going to happen. Men abandon wives for temporary war, how much better to do it for Eternal Peace.

Is not the process of eliminating one's own suffering really just the avoidance of suffering?

No. The hope is to eliminate suffering. Since the root of suffering is desire, we seek to eliminate desire. Cut it off at the root. Some think love of money is the root of all evil [1 Tim.6]. If we find money to be an unreasonable temptation, we may give away all that we have to free us of the evil. This is of course just the first step. I would not say I am avoiding evil, I would say I am eliminating evil from my life.

One might feel enlightened and without suffering, but does one not see the suffering of others which cannot be willed to stop, and by our humanity do we not suffer that they suffer?

If we have Enlightenment and thus have eliminated suffering from our lives, this can be given to others. Whatever their desires are, they will not matter. Re: [Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.] In our daily lives we will seek to end the suffering of those we contact. Acceptance of All that Is, is a key component of Zen. Re: [Mark 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.] If I am able to accept my own misfortunes in life, I will also be able to accept the misfortunate which falls on others. If it is within my power to improve their lot in life, to ease their suffering, I should do so. Even as a Christian has a responsibility to all beings, so does a Buddhist. The motivation may differ.

How can we cause pain to others in our "path to enlightenment" and say that we have eliminated suffering. We have only eliminated perhaps our own suffering.

I believe I’ve explained this. If we are causing pain in others, we should cease and desist. If we cause suffering in others, we will indeed suffer ourselves. Just because some find it necessary to walk away from daily life, not all do. The life of a monk is not required of all of us.

Is it healthy to avoid the desire of safety for others, world peace, and love between one another?

If I live my life as I should, I am promoting these things we agree are desirable. Some say world peace is not possible. This is not my concern. My life should advance those things contributing to peace in my space, and the ripples will reach to the ends of the infinite universe. When these good things come, whither in small ways or large ways, I will be thankful. My life will show that I value these things. I do not need to desire them if I, in my life, value them.

I would say that the value of desire for good things is priceless.

I would have guessed otherwise.