Are Christians being persecuted in the US?

msmcneal · Post by **msmcneal** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:40 pm

I'm not sure where the best forum would be for this debate, so if it's in the wrong spot, the mods should feel free to move it.

We've been hearing about Christians being persecuted alot lately in the USA. However, is there any truth to this? And if not, are Christians, mainly the conservative branches, actively trying to push their agenda on the rest of the American population? And as a bonus question, is this form of forcing conservative Christianity on the populace the idea the founding fathers had in mind?

DarkMaster24 · Post by **DarkMaster24** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:00 pm

Agreed, with what some of the other's said. How could a belief system that constitutes the majority of the country be getting persecuted? I think it's the opposite; they are the one's that are persecuting gays, women, ect.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:26 pm

DarkMaster24 wrote:Agreed, with what some of the other's said. How could a belief system that constitutes the majority of the country be getting persecuted? I think it's the opposite; they are the one's that are persecuting gays, women, ect.

Is it possible to be elected as the President of the United States and not claim to be a Christian of some sort? How then, can it be said that Christians are persecuted?

MagusYanam · Post by **MagusYanam** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:09 pm

msmcneal wrote:We've been hearing about Christians being persecuted alot lately in the USA. However, is there any truth to this? And if not, are Christians, mainly the conservative branches, actively trying to push their agenda on the rest of the American population? And as a bonus question, is this form of forcing conservative Christianity on the populace the idea the founding fathers had in mind?

I don't think that Christians are being actively persecuted in American society today, largely because we have a Christian culture which accepts Christianity as the norm. There are a few Christian ideas (such as pacifism, sustainable living and focus on the plight of the poor and oppressed) which are not popular in the cultural mainstream and which are often treated as counter-cultural or deluded, but this is not active persecution.

Indeed, I think that the conservative branches of Christianity tend to rest their vision of the church upon sexual mores (emphasis on monogamy, abstinence, opposition to abortion), which is very problematic when that emphasis becomes the sole focus and they lose sight of other justice issues in the process. The reason Christians supported monogamy and sexual abstinence in the days of the early church were to allow women and children to have greater autonomy within the community and to help them avoid sexual exploitation by older men. (The abortion thing is strange in that it was not an issue in the early church - an infant was generally not considered as having rights until baptised, which is problematic in itself...) On other issues, such as war, poverty and empire, conservative Christianity seems more or less to have adopted the standard cultural approach.

That said, the history of conservative Christianity is mixed. Since the beginning of the American experiment, conservative branches of Christianity have gradually retreated from positions of control in government and institutions of higher learning, giving way to Unitarian or liberal Congregational or Episcopalian voices; largely because a growing segment of society was beginning to see such views as reasonable. By the 1960's conservative Christianity had retreated to small churches in the American hinterland and various outlets of talk radio, but Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their generation of fundamentalist leaders began (in reaction to the Civil Rights movement) selling the culture-war approach that we've become familiar with over the past 30 years.

As to the forcing of conservative Christian ideas onto society, I think the FF's would have been strongly opposed. Most of them were, in fact, Deists, Unitarians or lapsed members of various denominations (Episcopal or Congregationalist, generally), and believed strongly in the classic-liberal disestablishment of religion.

Mere_Christian · Post by **Mere_Christian** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:32 pm

DarkMaster24 wrote:Agreed, with what some of the other's said. How could a belief system that constitutes the majority of the country be getting persecuted?

Christians are not being persecuted in the United States. And I'm rather fundy-ish.

I think it's the opposite; they are the one's that are persecuting gays, women, ect.

Prove that.

Opposing abortion for convenience and hailing "marriage" is a man and a woman is not even close to "persecution."

Tahir · Post by **Tahir** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:17 am

There are over 200 million Christians in America, they are not being persecuted.

I wouldn't say Muslims in America are being persecuted, but inch by inch Muslims are losing their religious rights. For example just recently in Oklahoma the state assembly banned Muslim women from taking their license photographs while wearing headscarf. There is no rational reason for such a law, but it is direct provocation of Muslims.

Another thing is that at the local level, Muslims find too much red tape in the way of constructing mosques, but if someone wants to build a church you rarely hear of any opposition coming from the local community or councils.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:31 am

Tahir wrote:There are over 200 million Christians in America, they are not being persecuted.

Agreed.

Tahir wrote:I wouldn't say Muslims in America are being persecuted, but inch by inch Muslims are losing their religious rights. For example just recently in Oklahoma the state assembly banned Muslim women from taking their license photographs while wearing headscarf. There is no rational reason for such a law, but it is direct provocation of Muslims.

I don't know the details of the situation in Oklahoma, but in Ontario we had a similar dispute. At issue was not so much the head scarf, but the covering of the face. Since the photo ID on the driver's license is used for identification, it defeats the purpose of the photo to have it taken with the face covered. This is not to provoke the Muslims, it applies to all. It has been noted that it may not be safe to drive if your head covering restricts your vision as some extreme coverings do. During elections, in order to verify your identity, you may be required to show your face that it matches the photo id you provide. This is not discrimination.

Tahir · Post by **Tahir** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:58 am

McCulloch wrote:I don't know the details of the situation in Oklahoma, but in Ontario we had a similar dispute. At issue was not so much the head scarf, but the covering of the face. Since the photo ID on the driver's license is used for identification, it defeats the purpose of the photo to have it taken with the face covered. This is not to provoke the Muslims, it applies to all. It has been noted that it may not be safe to drive if your head covering restricts your vision as some extreme coverings do. During elections, in order to verify your identity, you may be required to show your face that it matches the photo id you provide. This is not discrimination.

Obviously you have to show your face in a photograph that is for identification purposes. The thing is the law in Oklahoma, as I understand it, prohibits the covering of the hair with the Islamic headscarf, which has no rational basis.

As for driving, the only thing you need uncovered on your face is your eyes.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:19 am

Tahir wrote:As for driving, the only thing you need uncovered on your face is your eyes.

Obviously most of these would not impede the ability to drive:

But this could be rather dangerous:

East of Eden · Post by **East of Eden** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:17 pm

MagusYanam wrote:There are a few Christian ideas (such as pacifism, sustainable living and focus on the plight of the poor and oppressed) which are not popular in the cultural mainstream and which are often treated as counter-cultural or deluded, but this is not active persecution.

Where do you get pacifism is a Christian idea? Christ never criticized anyone for being a soldier.

Indeed, I think that the conservative branches of Christianity tend to rest their vision of the church upon sexual mores (emphasis on monogamy, abstinence, opposition to abortion)

Because those are the areas of Christian morality being attacked today.

The reason Christians supported monogamy and sexual abstinence in the days of the early church were to allow women and children to have greater autonomy within the community and to help them avoid sexual exploitation by older men.

From the beginning God's ideal was one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. He allowed some Old Testament figures to choose differently, usually with bad consequences.

As to the forcing of conservative Christian ideas onto society, I think the FF's would have been strongly opposed. Most of them were, in fact, Deists,

Deists believe God exists and created the world but then assumed no control of it or the lives of people. The FF, very much including Jefferson and Franklin, almost obsessively cited God's unceasing control of the world and of the great events of which they participated.

Unitarians or lapsed members of various denominations (Episcopal or Congregationalist, generally), and believed strongly in the classic-liberal disestablishment of religion.

Who is calling for an establishment of religion in the US?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:03 pm

East of Eden wrote:Where do you get pacifism is a Christian idea? Christ never criticized anyone for being a soldier.

From Jesus, you might have heard of him.

Luke 6:22-38 [color=red][i]my comments in red italics. [/i][/color] wrote:Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.
I don't know what your experience is, but I have yet to see a bunch of Christians leaping for joy when they are ostracized, insulted and scorned. They usually whine and complain about being persecuted. Didn't Christ teach that you should expect and rejoice in that?
But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back.
Doesn't this take away all the motivation for soldiering? How does a Christian soldier react to being shot at? Shoot back? Not according to Jesus.
Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.

But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Picture the Christian soldier in battle. "I love the enemy, but I will do my level best to kill him." Can a soldier be merciful?
Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."

East of Eden wrote:From the beginning God's ideal was one man and one woman in a marriage relationship. He allowed some Old Testament figures to choose differently, usually with bad consequences.

Odd that God does not once voice any disapproval of this different choice. Hmmm.