Satan and the End Times

[Ooberman]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

[Ooberman]

Yes, that is a very common view for Protestants, since they reject the Apocrypha. Still, it would seem important to me to consider them as part of the Canon if a prophet told me they were important.

It seems odd to trust your own judgment over a Saint, but that was the point of Luther and Calvin, which leads directly to Restorationism (Which is, I believe, your denomination).

And, as you said, we must all read and make our own decision. I still think it would be a daunting task because of the many issues.

I suppose we are all in danger of not finding the narrow way, so i appreciate your confidence in choosing what is right for you, relatively speaking. it's kind of "if it feels good, do it" approach to religion. jk/

[Amos]

Yes, that is a very common view for Protestants, since they reject the Apocrypha. Still, it would seem important to me to consider them as part of the Canon if a prophet told me they were important.

It seems odd to trust your own judgment over a Saint, but that was the point of Luther and Calvin, which leads directly to Restorationism (Which is, I believe, your denomination).

And, as you said, we must all read and make our own decision. I still think it would be a daunting task because of the many issues.

I suppose we are all in danger of not finding the narrow way, so i appreciate your confidence in choosing what is right for you, relatively speaking. it's kind of "if it feels good, do it" approach to religion. jk/

I have some more studying to do regarding the Apocryphal books. The OT ones are really irrelevant, as they don't teach the law of Christ, but the Law of Moses (Romans 8:2, Romans 1:16, Galatians 3), and the 39 that are there have helped convince me that Jesus is the Christ. The NT ones were rejected early on as unauthoritative from what I can gather. I will look into it further, though.

I must say that from what I can gather in the NT, every Christian is a saint (Ephesians 1:1, 1 Corinthians 16:1, Philippians 1:1, etc.) So in trusting my judgment, I am trusting the judgment of a saint. I can't find the Catholic idea of a saint in my bible. Maybe I'll find it as I dig into the Apocrypha.

Neither Luther nor Calvin had it right. Sola fide and TULIP Calvinism are as false as the day is long. And if I am a member of a denomination, I hope I can figure out how to be just a Christian, a member of the church Jesus built, before I die. Because Jesus didn't build any denominations.

I have really enjoyed this discussion, and you have given me some things to think about. Thanks.

[Ben Masada]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

----------

You speak of Satan as if it is a real being. Satan does not exist. Satan is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is a fabrication
of religious crooks to play with people's fellings, and make a living out of the naives of this world.

Ben:

[Amos]

You speak of Satan as if it is a real being. Satan does not exist. Satan is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is a fabrication
of religious crooks to play with people's fellings, and make a living out of the naives of this world.

Ben:

You speak of Satan as if he's not a real being. Satan exists. He is not but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is not a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people's feelings and make a living out of the naive of this world.

[Ooberman]

OK, I think I understand most of Xp'n theology, but I can't wrap my head around the Satan/End Times part.

1. Satan is Evil
2. Jesus is the Prince of Peace
3. World peace will be brought by Satan
4. and this is bad because it leads to Judgment Day
5. which is Good because there is a Godly massacre
6. so "Real" Xp'n's can go to Heaven
7. Huh?


Also, it seems every world leader has been declared the Anti-Christ at one point. Bush was, now Obama - and this is bad? Why? Because it will bring a millennia of Peace to the world, and hasten the End Times?

Or, is it bad, and we DON'T want to get to the End Times...

Honestly, I can't figure this out at all.

Satan, bad - but brings Peace
Jesus, good - but brings destruction

or, was Jesus really Satan?

And why do people claim we are in the final days? There hasn't been peace on Earth - EVER.

Are we supposed to help bring Peace to the World or not? Are we supposed to fight Satan, or help him? Are we supposed to turn the other cheek and love our neighbor - thus bringing peace, or not?

Help!

----------

You speak of Satan as if it is a real being. Satan does not exist. Satan is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is a fabrication
of religious crooks to play with people's fellings, and make a living out of the naives of this world.

Ben:

Matthew 4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him

Mark 1:12-13
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

(Were the wild animals metaphorical? Was God's approval metaphorical? etc)

Luke 4:1-13

Luke 4

1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

What temptation would it be if Satan was offering metaphorical power to Jesus?




I think it is very common to not consider Satan a real Being today, in a more reasonable (and less superstitious) age, but that is not how the gospel writers see it, or early Xpn's.

I simply don't see how the above passages can be read as metaphor, but the Resurrection (with the various angels - note that angels appear here, too) should not be read as metaphor.

If the above passages are written as metaphor then all of the supernatural events in the Bible should be strongly considered metaphorical as well. While I agree they should, i don't think this is holding true to the religion.

The religion has a God (Being), a Son (Being) and Satan (Being), angels (Beings), and other Beings (Nephilim, etc.), and they all interact with Man in literal ways.

I'm not worried about the truth of the mythology (whether or not they existed), but how the mythology is reconciled. It is not reconciled by waving a hand and saying, "oh, but that part isn't literal, but this part is" when, clearly, it was written as history.

If we are going to interpret things, we can interpret anything!

[Goat]

You speak of Satan as if it is a real being. Satan does not exist. Satan is but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is a fabrication
of religious crooks to play with people's fellings, and make a living out of the naives of this world.

Ben:

You speak of Satan as if he's not a real being. Satan exists. He is not but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is not a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people's feelings and make a living out of the naive of this world.

What evidence do you have that 'satan' is more than an allegory? How can you show that 'Satan' is a being? Ben is stating what many Jews accept about the concept of Satan.

[Amos]

You speak of Satan as if he's not a real being. Satan exists. He is not but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is not a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people's feelings and make a living out of the naive of this world.

What evidence do you have that 'satan' is more than an allegory? How can you show that 'Satan' is a being? Ben is stating what many Jews accept about the concept of Satan.

Matthew 4:1-11, Matthew 25:41, John 8:44, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7 for starters.

Ben made several assertions with no proof. I simply stated what many Christians accept about the concept of Satan with the same amount of proof as Ben used, using almost his exact words. My argument was as good as his, and I didn't even have to impugn the integrity of those who deny the existence of Satan to make it. He should have offered some proof that Satan is just a concept and just a fabrication by crooks.

[Goat]

You speak of Satan as if he's not a real being. Satan exists. He is not but a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Satan as a being is not a fabrication of religious crooks to play with people's feelings and make a living out of the naive of this world.

What evidence do you have that 'satan' is more than an allegory? How can you show that 'Satan' is a being? Ben is stating what many Jews accept about the concept of Satan.

Matthew 4:1-11, Matthew 25:41, John 8:44, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7 for starters.

Ben made several assertions with no proof. I simply stated what many Christians accept about the concept of Satan with the same amount of proof as Ben used, using almost his exact words. My argument was as good as his, and I didn't even have to impugn the integrity of those who deny the existence of Satan to make it. He should have offered some proof that Satan is just a concept and just a fabrication by crooks.

Well, I don't say that is is a 'fabrication by crooks'. However, the books you showed could just very well be allegory too.

Can you show that Satan is 'real', and not just being used , for example, in Matthew 4:1-11 as an allegory for self doubt, and tempation?

[McCulloch]

Remember that this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

[Ooberman]

Remember that this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

That is a good rule. obviously the bible can't be defended as truth for many reasons, but the theology should be able to be defended.

(BTW, which Xp'n Bible?)