The Problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists

[jessehove]

Here is the similar problem with Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists as I see it:

http://mercyandmessiah.blogspot.ca/2013 ... lists.html

P.S. Notice I am using a specific definition of what Fundamentalism from a historical modern definition in Christianity and Islam respectively.

[Burninglight]

@ Goat

Of course, what you can't show is that, well, your claims that the Quran are 'God's given scripture' can not be shown to be true. Yes, you can play those word games and claim 'the quran predicted such and such'.. and claim , in a ciruclar manner, no one but God could have written it.. the Christians do the same thing with the Bible, but those are just confirmation bias and word games. You take vague references and retrofit meaning. The inflexibilty of the fundamentalist let's them justify a certain measure of injustice and cruelty, and then claim 'oh, but it's better'. The problem is that they can't even see it, and see on just how destructive their worldview is.

I have already shown you how this is true, if one choses not to accept the truth, reject and deny this, it doesn't make him correct, he would need to disprove the source from its source as any false religion would have contradictions and errors in it. We as Muslims believe that the original Gospel including the Torah were from God, however the current bibles have been changed, but how can any sound Christian claim that what they believe and practice today is what God commanded when there are so many contradictions found in their very own scriptures?? Any person that comprehensively analyses this will come to this conclusion. If you were following Goat you would have realized that it is others that take a verse of the Quran then claim that Muslims are giving it an entire different meaning, the Quran is very clear so are it's verses. It is not a book of science even though it is comparable with science. I don't understand this form of mentality when people that criticize the Quran can't even explain their own ideologies and when Muslims adhere to the truth they cannot let them live in peace. The problem lies with those that try and change the religion of God and try and reform the world to their own imperfect beliefs that do not represent any form of truth especially when it is not from God, the Creator of all.

Christians ignore and wave off the contradictions in the bible just the same as Muslims ignore and wave off the contradictions in the Quran.

The Bible was written by men inspired by God, but the Quran was written as dictated by God; so, there is a big difference. the Quran cannot have any doubt in it, but the Bible has some 400,000 variances in it, but most of them are spelling errors, translation and nonsense errors. There are also a few minor interpolations that don't hurt the central gospel message. There are no significant variances in the Bible; they are all negligible. That is not the case with the Quran. In one place it says Allah saved Jesus from death then it says he killed him. There is also a serious abrogation (Satanic verse) in the Quran by non prophet Uthman who acted as Allah's editor.

If the Bible had any error regarding the death and resurrection of Christ or a contradiction there, that would end Christianity as we know it. Every Bible agrees on the central gospel message. The good news is a very simple message. That is we have all sinned and come short of god's glory, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. he died and rose from the dead. We choose whether to accept this message or not. Ro. 10,9, 10; Ro. 6:23; Ro. 3:23

What a generous little god you have. His creation does his bidding so he punishes ALL the sons and daughters of that creation, then he instigates the real plan and kills his son so that SOME of those sons and daughters can be saved from his unjust eternal punishment, all the while claiming that the sins of the fathers will not be visited on the son.
I am absolutely convinced that YOU will not recognize any contradiction in that though.

What kind of god do you have?

[HaLi8993]

@

And what of the seven dialects that were revealed? And why did muhammad teach different prayers to different people and claim they were the same? Did allah ever reveal anything directly to muhammad, ie not through gabriel?

Firstly: The Quran was revealed in one style at the beginning, but the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of  Allah be upon him) kept asking Jibreel (Gabriel) until he taught him seven styles, all of which were complete. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 

“Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.�

(narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819) 

Secondly, what is meant by styles according to the best of the scholarly opinions concerning what is meant is that there are seven ways of reciting the Quran, where the wording may differ but the meaning is the same, if there is a different meaning then it is by way of variations on a theme, not opposing and contradiction. 

I don't know where you are getting your information from but what evidence is there that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was teaching different prayers to different people??? 

As to the revelation Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) received by God. Which revelation are you talking about exactly? If what you mean by directly is Muhammad (peace be upon him) seeing God then no, rather Muhammad (peace be upon him) was spoken to by God behind a partition in one instance.

[HaLi8993]

@ Goat

Christians ignore and wave off the contradictions in the bible just the same as Muslims ignore and wave off the contradictions in the Quran.

We wouldn't need to wave off any Contradictions as Christians do Goat, as there are no contradictions in Islam, a Pure Monotheistic religion that has not been tampered with in any way shape or form and has been protected and preserved by God for all times and places.

@ Goat

You don't see to see that there is a difference between a claim, and evidence. I noticed that you, like fundamentalist Christans, ignore, deny and hand wave the contradictions that are presented. I also noticed you use the same techniques of using vague references, and changes in translation to 'show' that the quran is scietnifically accurate that the Christians do with the bible... even though it has been pointed out to you the problems with those claims. 

To me, those attitudes show the falseness of the position of rebellious fundamentalism.

If I were guilty of what you say Goat, I'm pretty sure you would be able to see through this and easily stand a chance in refuting what I present as evidence for you. You cannot do this, as what I say is the truth and what you believe to be the truth is falsehood and can easily be refuted from the very sources you are trying to disprove. I don't see any contradictions here Goat!!! 

Furthermore if you could show me where I have used changes in translation it would be more valuable as to prove your stance on the matter instead of subjectively arguing a point. I have refuted most, if not all the so called "problems" you believe to be true, this is why you do not have a response nor do you answer the questions I pose in my posts, you simply start resorting to accusations lol. 

To me this response shows your inability to prove the Quran wrong, and an attitude that represents defeat. Sorry Goat your going to have to back up your claims. No hard feelings hey!!!!

[HaLi8993]

@ Ooberman

Which was written by a human being.... 

How does your mind reconcile your claim that no human being was involved in introducing you to your god, when the Koran was written, is published, distributed, sold and read by human beings?

What makes you think this Ooberman?

What do you mean by introducing??, and please forward some evidence that proves that the Quran was written by man and not a revelation from God. The Quran being compiled by man, sold and read by humans does not mean that this is not from God. 

[HaLi8993]

@ Burninglight

The Bible was written by men inspired by God, but the Quran was written as dictated by God; so, there is a big difference. the Quran cannot have any doubt in it, but the Bible has some 400,000 variances in it, but most of them are spelling errors, translation and nonsense errors. There are also a few minor interpolations that don't hurt the central gospel message. There are no significant variances in the Bible; they are all negligible. That is not the case with the Quran. In one place it says Allah saved Jesus from death then it says he killed him. There is also a serious abrogation (Satanic verse) in the Quran by non prophet Uthman who acted as Allah's editor. 

If the Bible had any error regarding the death and resurrection of Christ or a contradiction there, that would end Christianity as we know it. Every Bible agrees on the central gospel message. The good news is a very simple message. That is we have all sinned and come short of god's glory, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. he died and rose from the dead. We choose whether to accept this message or not. Ro. 10,9, 10; Ro. 6:23; Ro. 3:23

How were these men inspired by God when they were neither Messengers nor Prophets such as Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Let us not fool ourselves, you will not find any two bibles that are the same, we are not dealing with minor issues here but the fundamental foundation of religion and the worship in One God, not the trinity!!! There are major contradictions in the current day bibles so
something that simply cannot be ignored.

As for the Quran it is preserved by God from any form of corruption and error and what you claim as error is no error at all but simply your misunderstanding of the text and meaning of verses. I would like you to shoe me where Allah says that he killed Jesus (peace be upon him) let's not speak of our own imaginative perspectives and let us look at what the Quran really says.

If it is true what you say then you would have ended Christianity a long time ago Burninglight. We can discuss the topic of Jesus' (peace be upon him) death and Resseruction in detail if you like, the Crucifixion and Resurrection were never prophesied in the Bible's Old Testament and there is ample Prophesies in the Old Testament about the Messiah getting saved from crucifixion. This again a major contradiction. How can a babies innocence be classified as sinful from birth, logic will testify to this absurdity. Jesus (peace be upon him) is not dead he did not die on the cross Burninglight we need to reject this notion as this is against God's religion. 

Burninglight it's time you accept the facts:

1) Jesus made it clear that crucifixion was not his purpose (Matt. 9:13, 12:7, Mark 1:38, Luke 4:43, 19:10)
 
2) The apostles did not believe Jesus rose from the dead (Matt. 28:17, Mark 16:14, Luke 24:11).

[Allahakbar]

@

And what of the seven dialects that were revealed? And why did muhammad teach different prayers to different people and claim they were the same? Did allah ever reveal anything directly to muhammad, ie not through gabriel?

Firstly: The Quran was revealed in one style at the beginning, but the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of  Allah be upon him) kept asking Jibreel (Gabriel) until he taught him seven styles, all of which were complete. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: 

“Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.�

(narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819) 

Secondly, what is meant by styles according to the best of the scholarly opinions concerning what is meant is that there are seven ways of reciting the Quran, where the wording may differ but the meaning is the same, if there is a different meaning then it is by way of variations on a theme, not opposing and contradiction. 

I don't know where you are getting your information from but what evidence is there that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was teaching different prayers to different people??? 

As to the revelation Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) received by God. Which revelation are you talking about exactly? If what you mean by directly is Muhammad (peace be upon him) seeing God then no, rather Muhammad (peace be upon him) was spoken to by God behind a partition in one instance.

Are the seven styles still recited? If they use different words and were revealed after the original then the claim that not one word has been changed is false. If they have different meanings then there is more than one quran. God spoke from behind a partition? Is that the only time? And I never mentioned SEEING god. There is a story of two of his followers praying when one grabs the other by the throat and drags him before the prophet to accuse him of heresy. The profit asks the first to recite the prayer and says it is as I taught. The second recites the prayer but it is different to the first and the profit says it is as I taught. (something like that)

[Goat]

@ Goat

Christians ignore and wave off the contradictions in the bible just the same as Muslims ignore and wave off the contradictions in the Quran.

We wouldn't need to wave off any Contradictions as Christians do Goat, as there are no contradictions in Islam, a Pure Monotheistic religion that has not been tampered with in any way shape or form and has been protected and preserved by God for all times and places.

That's what the Christians say.. even the contradictions were pointed out, quite blariingly. And, from my observation, that is exactly what most Muslims do too, claim there are no contradictions , even when they are pointed out as clear as day. That, and calling one group or other 'not True Christian/Muslim', because their beliefs are just slightly different.

If I were guilty of what you say Goat, I'm pretty sure you would be able to see through this and easily stand a chance in refuting what I present as evidence for you. You cannot do this, as what I say is the truth and what you believe to be the truth is falsehood and can easily be refuted from the very sources you are trying to disprove. I don't see any contradictions here Goat!!!

Ah, that is another characteristic of the fundamentalist.. They claim they have not been refuted, even when their point has been dismantled totally thoroughly, and ripped to shreds. This 'truth and false' statement reminds me of the book by George Orwell called '1984'. "War is peace, Freedom is slavery'.. and the term 'doublethink'

[Burninglight]

@ Goat

Christians ignore and wave off the contradictions in the bible just the same as Muslims ignore and wave off the contradictions in the Quran.

We wouldn't need to wave off any Contradictions as Christians do Goat, as there are no contradictions in Islam, a Pure Monotheistic religion that has not been tampered with in any way shape or form and has been protected and preserved by God for all times and places.

That's what the Christians say.. even the contradictions were pointed out, quite blariingly. And, from my observation, that is exactly what most Muslims do too, claim there are no contradictions , even when they are pointed out as clear as day. That, and calling one group or other 'not True Christian/Muslim', because their beliefs are just slightly different.

If I were guilty of what you say Goat, I'm pretty sure you would be able to see through this and easily stand a chance in refuting what I present as evidence for you. You cannot do this, as what I say is the truth and what you believe to be the truth is falsehood and can easily be refuted from the very sources you are trying to disprove. I don't see any contradictions here Goat!!!

Ah, that is another characteristic of the fundamentalist.. They claim they have not been refuted, even when their point has been dismantled totally thoroughly, and ripped to shreds. This 'truth and false' statement reminds me of the book by George Orwell called '1984'. "War is peace, Freedom is slavery'.. and the term 'doublethink'

In response to your signature even though this option is not given. The only part about science I disagree with is the part where they say there are no absolutes.

[HaLi8993]

@ 

Are the seven styles still recited? If they use different words and were revealed after the original then the claim that not one word has been changed is false. If they have different meanings then there is more than one quran. God spoke from behind a partition? Is that the only time? And I never mentioned SEEING god. There is a story of two of his followers praying when one grabs the other by the throat and drags him before the prophet to accuse him of heresy. The profit asks the first to recite the prayer and says it is as I taught. The second recites the prayer but it is different to the first and the profit says it is as I taught. (something like that)

Yes, there are still different styles used while reciting the Quran. The differences between these styles are not the matter of contradiction and opposition, rather they are synonymous its basically different ways of saying a particular word. There isn't the use of different words that have been introduced into the religion that has not already been prescribed, hence this does not change the meaning of any given verse. These styles were revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him). Therefore there is no falseness nor is there different Quran's that represent different meanings. This can be confirmed in a lengthy Hadith (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2287; Muslim, 818) where the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

....."This Qur'aan has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easiest for you."

If what you mean by the only time he received revelation then no, revelation came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) at different times and places, the beginning of the Revelation that came to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was good dreams, he never saw a dream but it came true. The Angel of Revelation who brought it down to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), (Gabriel) (peace be upon him) only heard it from the Lord of Glory, may He be exalted, then he passed it on to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), so he heard it with his ears and his heart understood it. 

You are going to have to show me this "story" you are talking about as this could be referring to anything.

[HaLi8993]

@ Goat

That's what the Christians say.. even the contradictions were pointed out, quite blariingly. And, from my observation, that is exactly what most Muslims do too, claim there are no contradictions , even when they are pointed out as clear as day. That, and calling one group or other 'not True Christian/Muslim', because their beliefs are just slightly different.

Yes, this is what Christians say but the contradictions and errors in the current day bibles are clear, as opposed to the Quran where there are no contradictions that some may claim. I haven't seen a single contradiction pointed out by anyone thus far. What I have witnessed though is a lack of knowledge of the Islamic belief. Every belief and every action of worship must have evidence and be compliant with what God has instructed. It is very clear that this is not the case with some misguided sects this is easily recognized when one refers a matter back to the Quran and Sunnab.This is how we determine the truth. It's very simple!!

Ah, that is another characteristic of the fundamentalist.. They claim they have not been refuted, even when their point has been dismantled totally thoroughly, and ripped to shreds. This 'truth and false' statement reminds me of the book by George Orwell called '1984'. "War is peace, Freedom is slavery'.. and the term 'doublethink'

Proud to be a fundamentalist Goat, thanks for the compliment! 

If you could just prove to me how anything has been dismantled, this would be greatly appreciated. Name calling and unjustifiable claims won't help you pick any topic for discussion Goat and let us discuss this in detail.