Christian 'Drop-outs'

[OpenYourEyes]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 39 by OpenYourEyes]

Also, keep in mind that my point does not apply to all former Christians. It only applies to those who left the faith prematurely or due to unreasonable reasons.

Hello! I have been reading through the posts on this forum, and this one sentence, caught my eye.

My friend, I seriously doubt that anyone wakes up in the morning intending to walk away from Christianity or any other religion, and as a matter of fact, I would bet that most had difficulty in walking away. Some, have grown up in homes where people in their families have been Christians for generations. Admitting to their mother that they no longer walk in the faith, would be very difficult. My point is, I believe that most thought about it....a LOT!! I don't think it was a decision based on being unreasonable, or flawed reasoning in general. I believe it was well thought out on their part, but they remained unconvinced...
....

Thanks! That is RIGHT on the money. It was very difficult for me to leave my faith. I had taught and preached and been a lay missionary to Japan. It was part of who I was. In someways it is part of who I still am. I grew to love Jesus. As I've said, I still do. MY studies convinced me the supernatural aspect was something I could not honestly believe in. To this day I wish there was a loving God guiding my life, with the promise of paradise when my body completes the trajectory it is on. I think it is a great idea. Tho' the Bible paints a picture of a tyrant God, an angry, jealous God, a sometimes vindictive God who metes out punishment WAY out of proportion to the 'sin,' I never believed it. I saw that much of the Bible should not be taken literally, but as literature. I KNEW that God loved me and we saw that example in Jesus. But I confess, I never had much appreciation for Paul, except for a few passages like 1 Corinthians 13.

But I would be completely, totally intellectually dishonest if I believed in the supernatural aspect of any religion. Let me tell a short, true story.

A week after watching the movie My All American, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3719896/ about the Texas football player, Freddie Steinmark, who was born only a few months after I was, I realized I was lying in a hospital bed after having my leg amputated at the hip. My doctor was sitting on the bed with me. We weren't talking of the operation or of medical issues. We were just talking about personal things. I told him my only wish was that there was a beautiful lake nearby to swim in.

After the doctor left, I looked at my body. The severed limb appeared to still be there, attached to me. I knew this was an illusion, an illusion based on hope. But I didn't want to turn away or test the illusion. I did not want to prove it was an hallucination.

Finally, I decided I had to test. I knew if it was an illusion I would fall if I tried to cross the room. I carefully turned and put my 'feet' on the floor. I stood. I walked across the room, looking at myself in the mirror. I walked! The leg really was back! I realized then, that I had been wrong about God; that he really did exist and had miraculous powers. There was no other explanation. As happy as I was to have my leg back, I didn't like admitting I had been wrong these many years. I even realized I would have to report this miracle and my renewed belief here on this forum. But there was no other explanation.

Then I woke up. The dream had been so vivid, so real, I hesitated then looked at my legs. Yes, they were both still there, still skinny, scarred and beautiful. It took a while to convince myself it had been a dream.

I tell this story for one reason. I know that even in my unconscious mind I would believe in God if I encountered sufficient evidence. I guess there is a second reason. I tell it to reinforce what you wrote, PN, that those of us who've left our faith have not done so lightly. There are elements of my former belief that will never leave me. In fact, when I am absolutely honest and at my most introspective, private self I have this hope [not the right word, but I do not have a better one] or vague 'something' that I relax in but cannot describe. All I can say is that it is a vague Zen like feeling that I will somehow merge with the universe; that we are all one, that in some way my consciousness will continue. I know this is some kind of wishful thinking that is part of being human, the ultimate inability to believe in our own deaths despite the overwhelming evidence. There is a part of me that really believes I will never die.

[Clownboat]

For Discussion or Debate:
How to prevent Christians from dropping out of the faith?

How to respond to Christians who have already dropped out of the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Just to elaborate on some terms and why I started this thread...
A Christian drop-out stems from the same idea of high school drop-out, in that both groups left something prematurely. The Christian drop-out leaves Christianity usually due to some problem or conflict that they encounter with their belief system and then they give up prematurely. I think most people are accustomed to hearing about and assuming that many atheists leave the faith based on rational reasons but then when I press them I find that many of the key factors that should be considered in the decision are missing. There tends to be a lack of proper understanding of God and the Bible, a lack of familiarity with Christian apologetics, and even on conducting research into their objections. As such, I tend to not spend much time answering their every objection and instead I help lay a foundation for them (in their thinking) where they can find the answers themselves because all the main problem boils down to is a problem dealing with doubt.

One recent example is of a former Christian who drew a negative conclusion about some aspect of Christianity based on an inadequate answer that their professor told them. Apparently, this person considered asking a teacher as being sufficient to deal with their doubt since their response came after my questioning of whatever research they've done on the matter. Ironically, this person dropped out of their class on religion. Notice here no real effort was put in to look for answers either because the person didn't know how and where to look or this person just gave up. This is very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

There is reason to doubt the Bible though, are you not informed about it? If so, that also is a very common sign/pattern of someone who doesn't know how to deal with doubt.

Evidence:

For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her� — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.
In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest manuscripts.
And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing� likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.
What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.
In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century.
http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/ ... olars.html

Do you now still think that there is no reason to doubt the Bible?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 88 by JLB32168]

It's odd that Christians still try to proselytize even though they don't care, it doesn't matter and so on.

Proselytization involves bringing the Gospel to people who have never heard it. If one has heard it and rejected it then that’s where my part ends. Even Christ said as much.

Meh... when I went online and checked out the word in the dictionaries they got there.... it turns out it's usually meant to mean the same as "converting".

But you are free to use it any other way you like. I used it to mean "try to convert us " like most dictionaries report.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?ter ... in_frame=0


But that's a trivial point.

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

I think that's what you told us, if I am not mistaken.
If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

[OpenYourEyes]

But really the biggest problem for christianity is the inability to provide solid, credible, science based proof of their god. If you want to take a swing at that proposition I have a topic running right now for just that purpose. In this sub-forum the topic is Proof of the christian god.

I actually posted in your thread but I deleted it out of respect for your topic so I'll move my post here instead...

[Replying to post 1 by RonE]

Hi RonE. I appreciate you inviting to participate in your thread but one question that pops into my head right off the bat is:

1. Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

I ask this because it is of my experience that had you done some research, or enough good research, you would not be surprised and would even EXPECT for there not to be much corroboration between the two fields. This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 103:

...
This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion
...

What part of "can you show you speak truth" requires one to know about science?

That the theist can't even make a logical, non-scientific argument for their goofy, unprovable beliefs is their problem.

and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

One need merely ask the claimant to show they speak truth to understand the theist can't support their supernatural claims of flying zombies and "creator" gods using science or logic, or anything beyond "I believe it to be true".

This ain't the problem of the challenger, but of the claimant.


I'm curious to know OpenYourEyes, are you willing to submit your cv for analysis, that we might determine you ever even took a science course, much less passed it?

Or are we expected to study that which you won't present?

[RonE]

Hi RonE. I appreciate you inviting to participate in your thread but one question that pops into my head right off the bat is:

1. Have you done any research on how science relates to Christianity or vice-versa?

I ask this because it is of my experience that had you done some research, or enough good research, you would not be surprised and would even EXPECT for there not to be much corroboration between the two fields. This is why I always remind people (Zzyzx, Danmark, JoeyKnotHead, etc) that learning about science does NOT make you an expert about religion and that you need to understand BOTH (or even a multi-disciplinary approach) to keep them into proper perspective.

I'm quite sure that others on this forum know much more about christianity than I. And I am equally sure that others know more about science than I. Whether my knowledge of the two is sufficient, whether my knowledge of one side compliments/offsets/conflicts with the other side is an open issue. Something maybe we will learn in our future exchanges.

The purpose of my topic is to test a debate theory, not an unusual motivation on this site I'm sure. I will just say that I am exploring, obviously, theists ability to defend their claims of their god being supernatural, having supernatural powers. Supernatural meaning characteristics attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

I started with an idea of where the topic would lead, and so far it hasn't, but it is early yet. So please think about the supernatural characteristics you believe your god has and tell me how you think science could support them. Post them here or in my topic I'll watch for them.

[JLB32168]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature. I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway. If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

[Danmark]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature. I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway. If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

Whether or not you 'care' about what others say is not relevant in a debate. Marshaling facts that support your arguments is what counts. You haven't done that. You have failed to offer facts to support your argument for your point of view, which appears to be that you believe something about the supernatural and have disdain for those who don't agree with your unsupported belief.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by JLB32168]

What I was talking about is that some people come in here, don't debate, don't care if they convince anyone, and tell us they don't even care about our immortal souls.

Speaking for myself, on this board most skeptics are former Christians who aren’t the least bit in returning to the faith and they are quite adversarial in nature.

I'm one of those. I am your debate adversary.
At your service.

I can’t be bothered with convincing them since their adamantine wills are already set and Christ warned against it anyway.

Ok, so........... you aren't trying to convince one of us.
Are you trying to convince anyone else?

If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.

What about caring about what YOU say?
Care to debate those things?

If that's true, gee wilikers, I have to wonder what some Christians ARE here for, exactly?

I can’t speak for “some Christians� but my reasons for debating here are hardly a secret.

Well, I think you said it was to keep us rascals from "asking questions in bad faith"?

Is that IT?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 106:

...
If this rock solid rejection is coupled with derisive belittlement of my faith then it’s really silly to ask me to invest much in caring about what they say.
...

I propose if the holy text regarding one's faith presents nothing but "derisive belittlement" for non-believers, well how 'bout that.

"Y'all don't do y'all no derisive belittlement, but do enjoy this here holy text I have that sets out just how to do it!"

For centuries, even millenia, atheists have been "derisively belittled" to the point of death based on the unproven, unprovable claims of theists.

Now that it gets turned back on 'em, well that's just rude!