Religion is "man-made" is like saying universe is

[paarsurrey1]

Revealed-Religion is "man-made" is like saying universe is "man-made", is it so?

Regards

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to post 100 by DrNoGods]

Hello DrNoGods,

Since I don't believe in the existence of any gods, I'd have to say that on this planet, man is the ultimate authority.

I hope that you don't expect me to believe that you would hire that ol fox to guard your henhouse as if having forgotten all the atrocities that "superior" fox (man) has done throughout history. Should we be like children that "advance" themselves to authority apart from their parents only to fall flat on their faces?

What is mankind in his "ultimate authority" able do about earthquakes, tsunamis, an angry ocean, or the like? I ain't gonna believe you because you are too wise to think that human nature-driven, unregenerate man can be trusted for ultimate leadership!

And from the rules for this particular section of the website, the bible cannot be used as an authoritative source to support a claim. Of course there are plenty of other venues where that is not the case (eg. a church), but here it is simply a rule for the Science and Religion section, which makes sense.

I'm thankful that this website has rules that prevent abusive talk and abusive use of the Bible. The more powerful a device is, the more dangerous its misuse. But think of its magnificence when it is properly used! When I find occasion to use the Bible, I share its precious wisdom only with those I trust!

As for Indian cave drawings, I was only talking about their drawing of what they saw.

Thanks for more arguments to favor evolution. From the links you gave, I generally read what was deduced from evidence. Would it be sufficient to indict if brought to court? Is there anyone to indict? The second link you gave contains the statement,

"A phylogenetic tree or evolutionary tree is a branching diagram or "tree" showing the inferred (emphasis added) evolutionary relationships among ..." and, "The taxa joined together in the tree are implied (emphasis added) to have descended ..."

I thought we were talking about what's factually assured instead of inferred. When will the evolutionary debate settle the issue to the extant that Mr. Reality will use it to leave us creationists speeches?

Is anyone else home?

I expect so, but this line of discussion has been carried out here so many times that they may simply be tired of responding.

Are you also tired?

Earl

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 101 by Erexsaur]

What is mankind in his "ultimate authority" able do about earthquakes, tsunamis, an angry ocean, or the like?

We can't do anything about these things but deal with them when they happen, and try to better predict their occurrences. But we know how they happen now, unlike when old religious texts like the bible were written, so there is no need to attribute them to any gods getting angry, or gods in general.

I thought we were talking about what's factually assured instead of inferred. When will the evolutionary debate settle the issue to the extant that Mr. Reality will use it to leave us creationists speeches?

There is no real debate on evolution's validity among the scientific community. There is so much evidence collected that supports it that it has reached the exalted status of theory. That means that the original hypotheses have been tested extensively, no falsifications have been found, and many details of the observed diversity of life forms presently distributed on this planet are explained by the theory. Hence the promotion to "theory", which many theists and non-scientists erroneously think means the same as hypothesis (eg. the phrase "it is only a theory"). But inferring things from observations is a common part of the scientific method, and does not ... as you seem to be implying ... mean that something is automatically false or on shaky ground. If extensive testing and analysis shows the inference to be valid, then it can be accepted as legitimate until it is falsified in some way. So far, that has not happened with evolution.

Are you also tired?

These same discussion points come up here all the time, but it only takes a minute or two to respond.

[imhereforyou]

Revealed-Religion is "man-made" is like saying universe is "man-made", is it so?

Regards

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, per definition. The belief has to come from people. Therefore, people create religion.
The universe is all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. Matter and space don't come from people. Therefore, the comparison is only related in that words are used to express the sentences.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to DrNoGods]

Hello DRNoGods,

We can't do anything about these things but deal with them when they happen, and try to better predict their occurrences. But we know how they happen now, unlike when old religious texts like the bible were written, so there is no need to attribute them to any gods getting angry, or gods in general.

Please note my emphasis on your last sentence. Suppose you suddenly find yourself without warning plunged into such a situation as described and the only way you would be able to "deal" with it is by seeing yourself going, going, going to become a goner. What would you think about God then? Ask "General War," a Russian general that was over 100,000 men during Russia's war with Afghanistan. Prior to the incident, he was a devout communist that hated Christians thinking himself sure that God doesn't exist! He had lots and lots of power "without" God! Would you like to know what he was thinking when he found himself in the situation I described? I listened to him in person with his testimony of the outcome and have his video. He ask God during that critical moment to save him just in case if God is real! He was the only one that survived the crash of the helicopter that carried him because it was shot down and he became a believer immediately after regaining conscience. His recovery was also miraculous. He had full use of his body as he talked with the aid of a translator.

Children at times are reminded by their parents who is boss and man is at times reminded who is the Big Boss by Mr. Reality.

More about that ol fox I spoke of in my last post: one must know that he is bad for the job before firing him from guarding the henhouse.

But inferring things from observations is a common part of the scientific method, and does not ... as you seem to be implying ... mean that something is automatically false or on shaky ground. If extensive testing and analysis shows the inference to be valid, then it can be accepted as legitimate until it is falsified in some way. So far, that has not happened with evolution.

But how do you extensively test and analyze the validity of what supposedly happened in the past? How do we know it really happened as surmised by the evidence as interpreted? Is fossil interpretation perfect? Is trust in evolution as the way we arrived vital for guiding our destinies from which we cannot return for another try? Why the presence of so many "stupid" people including scientists that believe otherwise? Why? We all agree on the law of gravity as a fact, don't we?

Are You also tired?

These same discussion points come up here all the time, but it only takes a minute or two to respond.

Since you respond regularly, I take it that you enjoy our conversation. I thought that by now I would have heard from Kenisaw, H.sapiens, Danmark, or Willum. I enjoy you guys.


Earl


.

[Danmark]

But how do you extensively test and analyze the validity of what supposedly happened in the past? How do we know it really happened as surmised by the evidence as interpreted?

Easily. When we look at processes or forces such as evolution or gravity, we see patterns, patterns that can be and are replicated before our very eyes. We look at the overwhelming evidence and can repeat it thru current experimentation or observation. When we do that, we see that things happen exactly according to our predictions. When we throw an object away from the Earth, it returns exactly as predicted. We practice artificial selection and the results align with what was predicted. All of the sciences show that the age of the Earth, the fossil record and other factors are perfectly congruent. This is the exact opposite with fantasy, religious miracles and superstition, where nothing is predictable and everything is a surprise and does not fit with what we actually observe.

[Erexsaur]

[Replying to imhereforyou]

Hello Imhereforyou,

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods, per definition. The belief has to come from people. Therefore, people create religion.
The universe is all existing matter and space considered as a whole; the cosmos. Matter and space don't come from people. Therefore, the comparison is only related in that words are used to express the sentences.

Children learn the responsibility to recognize the authority of, respect, and obey their parents. Is this responsibility an invention of the children?

Besides, have you considered what inspire people to look up to supernatural power- uncontrollable things like weather, abundance in harvests, etc? Although we have greater knowledge of these things, can we yet control them?

Although true there are many false religions that are inventions of men, that does not negate the fact that there is the "Real McCoy!"


Earl

[Overcomer]

Danmark wrote:

When we look at processes or forces such as evolution or gravity, we see patterns, patterns that can be and are replicated before our very eyes

.

And we also see design. What do you make of that?

[Danmark]

Danmark wrote:

When we look at processes or forces such as evolution or gravity, we see patterns, patterns that can be and are replicated before our very eyes

.

And we also see design. What do you make of that?

No we don't see design at all. Seeing 'design' in nature is merely a projection coming from ignorance and lack of appreciation for the processes involved.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 106:

...
Children learn the responsibility to recognize the authority of, respect, and obey their parents. Is this responsibility an invention of the children?

Not near as much, I propose, as it is respect for their empty stomachs when it is, they get 'em sent away from supper if'n it is, they don't offer sufficient respect for their parents a-prayin' to 'em a god before it is, anyone can eat.

I learned me to respect the ritual of the parents having to do 'em their prayer, but not ever did I learn to respect the faulty reasonin' it was, that set 'em to do it.

Besides, have you considered what inspire people to look up to supernatural power- uncontrollable things like weather, abundance in harvests, etc?

I found it twixt ignorance, and shinola.

Uncontrollable things are, by definition uncontrollable. Gods can't magically get 'em around the proper use of terms.

Although we have greater knowledge of these things, can we yet control them?

What we don't have us, is reason to conclude it's your favored god a doin' it.

Again, words have meaning. Uncontrollable means that thing right there that is it that can't be done, and how 'bout that.

So, until you can show a god controls anything, including the uncontrollable, such claims are lost as a cow at a square dance. And the poor thing's there to find 'er a mate.

Although true there are many false religions that are inventions of men, that does not negate the fact that there is the "Real McCoy!"

For it is, wrapping up words in quotaters makes your claim as magically true as saying the uncontrollable can be it controlled, but only if it is, you're God while it is, you're a-doin' what it is there, we done said us it can't be done?


Conclusions?

Heck, I'll dance me with the cow, if'n it'll make 'er feel better. But we ain't stoppin' us by the Awful Waffle on the way home, lest it is, she pays her the bill. And the tip.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 104 by Erexsaur]

His recovery was also miraculous. He had full use of his body as he talked with the aid of a translator.

There are many examples of people who "find religion" for one reason or another, often in a life threatening situation as you describe, or while incarcerated, etc. But this has no bearing at all on whether their imaginings actually mean anything. It just means they have had an experience that changed their minds. For my own case, I just see no reason to believe that gods of any type exist, or ever did exist. There is simply no evidence for them of any kind, anywhere, and never has been. The more we understand about how nature works (and that is infinitely more now that it was 2000 years ago and prior), the less need there is to think that an imaginary protector in the sky is really there.

But how do you extensively test and analyze the validity of what supposedly happened in the past? How do we know it really happened as surmised by the evidence as interpreted? Is fossil interpretation perfect? Is trust in evolution as the way we arrived vital for guiding our destinies from which we cannot return for another try? Why the presence of so many "stupid" people including scientists that believe otherwise? Why? We all agree on the law of gravity as a fact, don't we?

There are all kinds of methods for understanding what happened in the past. A great deal of efforts in geology, archeology, biology, chemistry, physics, and all the "'ologies" has led to continuously advancing knowledge in these subjects. This cumulative knowledge over the centuries has given us a far more accurate picture of how nature works, how to date fossils and other items accurately, how the Earth's crustal plates move and interact, and countless other examples. We apply these things every day in forensics and other areas where there is no human to relay direct visual evidence of an event.

Many people do believe that gods and devils exist, that humans can live forever in an afterlife, etc. And there are many "flavors" of these ideas among different religions and groups. But there is no evidence that gods exist now, or did in the past, so in my view no reason to believe that they do. It is as simple as that. If someone could produce any kind of legitimate evidence that a god exists, and it was convincing and reproducible evidence, I'd change my mind immediately. But so far no one has done that any more than for other proposed beings like bigfoot, the Lochness monster, etc. All are products of imagination.