Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

.
Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by catnip]

In other words, the foundation of this thread requires the Bible to establish it as a topic of conversation. There is no use in then dismissing the Bible as any kind of evidence for the existence of Satan because it has been used to suggest that Satan could be something other than shown in the Biible. Huh?!

YEAH, HUH?

Could you try that again... I don't know what it means.

This is impossible!

What is impossible? Could you try that again, I don't know what it means.

It is one thing to establish a thread challenging the reality of Satan and demand some kind of proof of him apart from the Bible. It is quite another to imagine that Satan is a god elsewhere, a biblical character whose character is established by the Bible and even that fact is cited in the OP--and his role in the Bible.

Yeah, those are two different things.. and your point?

So atheists can establish their discussion using the Bible, suggest that he could be a god in another religion--yes, currently there are "Satanists" but the only source for Satan and myths about him is the Bible.

Well, I think there is a lack of Satanists in here... try me.. I'm an atheist.

There might be other texts with the same character in it.. but we are talking about the Bible Satan. Maybe the Bible talks bad about Satan because it was a competing god. And you know... the authors didn't quite LIKE the competing god for some reason, so called it.."evil". And you know, I made all of that up IN MY MIND... It's called "speculation".

Christians might speculate that ALL THE STORIES ARE TRUE.. just the way the Bible says they are.... or portrays them as being.. but that's PURE SPECULATION, too. Christians dont KNOW that the stories about Satan are true.. they just SPECULATE that the stories are true... but that doesn't mean others can't speculate DIFFERENTLY.

In order to respond to biblically based fantasies and speculations about what is written, then the Bible, whether it is true or not, logically should be within bounds to respond the supposition that Satan might really be a competing god.

If we are talking about a story book character, it's fine to keep within bounds of the story. BUT if we also say that the character exists in REAL LIFE.. then we are OUT of the bounds of the story. But it's NEVER possible to PROVE that a story book character is REAL by pointing to THE STORY about him.

I don't think this falls under the rule against using the Bible as proof of Satan--no one is proving Satan, they are required to be convincing that Satan is not a god to an atheist who suggested it. Purely fictional, of course.

You might want to prove that Satan can ONLY be imagined the way described in the Bible?... well.. no. Satan can be imagined in MANY ways.

Satan is real/not real: discussion about a character that some consider real
Suppose Satan is a god: discussion about whether or not a potentially fictional character could be a competing god. A fictional scenario for what is a now fictional character. That is why I said, "huh?" Neither one of us believe in Satan.

The BELIEF in Satan isn't the question. The possible NATURE of the story book character is.

We are speculating about the ORIGINS of the stories about Satan in the Bible... MAYBE, just MAYBE... Satan was a rival god who gets bad press in the BIBLE. After all, the Bible is PRO Yahweh and ANTI Satan.

Who KNOWS if the authors are telling us the whole truth about Satan?

Speculating about Satan requires consulting the mythology about him.

And NOBODY has said otherwise. It's just that the MYTHOLOGY or STORIES aren't EVIDENCE or PROOF. They are just STORIES. Where do the stories come from?... Satan might have been some god someone didn't like too much. Put him as the bad guy in THEIR book.. called the book Bible.

And it logically follows that if there is no Satan then there is no possible role for Satan apart from what is described in the Bible.

You mean as a character in stories?

Yeah. At least historically. You could name any character Satan, I suppose.

Sure, Jesus is "Satan". Why not?
The Easter Bunny is Satan... why not be as meaningless as possible?

WHAT have you tried to demonstrate?

And it fails as an attack on those who believe in God and Satan as an argument.

The OP is meant as a question, not an attack.

I see most questions such as this as a form of attack,

Attack?
Attacking WHAT?
Attacking WHOM?

I suppose there are Christians who just can't tolerate that people ask them questions.
Must be harsh. Debate must be really tough.

but that goes back to my beliefs about our natures and our view of what we need to do.

Are you telling us that the nature of Christians is that they consider questions as attacks?

One of these days, I promise to write an OP about that, but in the meantime, I will accept your suggestion that is merely a question.

Here is a hint: If it has a question mark at the end... it's most likely a question.

I am especially amused about this because, very simply, Christianity would be very much BETTER if it weren't for enhancements given Satan outside of and apart from what is written in scripture!

Kinda hard to prove that one, isn't it?

It should be hard to prove that Satan's image has been enhanced in popular culture since biblical times? Why should it be?

Not that.

Hard to prove that Christianity would be very much BETTER if it weren't for "enhancements" .... how you gonna prove THAT? Go to that alternate reality to check?

The Bible may not be proof that Satan exists,

Good, you got that part. It's not. It's also not proof that God exists.

but it is the source of the concept of Satan

Well, for us it is... who KNOWS where the concept actually originated?

and a comparison between what people think about Satan according to popular culture and according to the Bible should not be against any rules,

Who said it was?

just as the biblical view of Satan could be cited in the OP to establish the question.

We are free to speculate about what the Bible means and where the concepts originated, because THAT info isn't FOUND in the Bible.

It should be no more so than Homer's Iliad should be against the rules in establishing the character of Odysseus.

If the Iliad was the ONLY source for what the character was like, sure. But then, we might also be able to SPECULATE where HOMER got the idea from. Maybe it predates Homer. MAYBE.. Homer didn't represent Odysseus accurately. MAYBE... there never was an Odysseus and so on. We can speculate until the cows come home.

THE POINT IS.... there's not use pretending that the ONLY TRUE "Odysseus" is to be found in Homer. We are talking about BOOK CHARACTERS. Maybe true ones, maybe pure fiction. In the case of SATAN, maybe a god, maybe a "fallen angel"... or whatnot.

Meh, take your pick.

By withdrawing his grace from Israel, God permitted the tempter to prevail over them.

Well then, GOD might have been a "stronger" god.. Big deal. Doesn't mean Satan wasn't a god.

Yes, early on it says that he basically served God.

Yeah, so a god serving a god... who knows, right? They CALL Satan an "angel"... so what? It's just vague labels were talking about here.

Some say he was like a prosecutor in God's court, but nowhere does it imply he had godly powers.

So what? MAYBE the authors of the Bible had it IN for a rival tribe and their Satan god.
WHO KNOWS... right?

Some people just might take whatever the BIBLE says is true. Who knows?
Might be a pack of lies for all we know.

I also remember that in the Garden of Eden, that Satan guy was in the form of a talking walking snake?.. who could outsmart humans? That's kinda magical to me.

If you take it literally, perhaps.

Well, I don't. But.. that's the story.
All kinds of stories in the Bible.

Who knows which one is true or not, right?

It also seems that he can stand a lot of heat, since he was thrown into a lake of fire and survives. Neat trick !

I dunno. Some Christians think that people will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. I don't take it that way . . .

Yeah, hard to figure out what ANY of it means. Same thing with that "Satan" guy. Hard to know what it is, really. It's all over the place.

I actually asked you if you believed that Yahweh was real.. but never mind, I suppose. I am not too sure what you are saying exactly. Are you saying that these Bible characters are only metaphors?

Yahweh was a lower god in the Canaanite echelon. In fact, the list I consulted listed him as last on the list. This may be where the idea comes into scripture that early on he was a god of war and may explain some of the early stories told about him of conquests that archaeologists can't seem to find a match for between the fall of a place, such as Jericho, and the Hebrews.

I don't know if you think yes or no on that question.
Maybe this and maybe that.

Maybe Satan was considered a god at some time by some people somewhere. And maybe one day I will know if you think Yahweh ....... ah never mind.

When we act apart from God, we are ruled by Satan.

That's like saying "If you aren't with us, you are again' us."

Well, I think that is what is actually reflected in the Bible.

Maybe it is, and maybe it's not. We can all speculate, right?

The whole objective of faith is to rise above the temptations of the personality, the attribution of the needs of the body which--in scripture--is explained by Paul to be the source of sin.

OHHHHH you are against people fulfilling their physical NEEDS... yikes. I usually urge people to have as much fun as possible in life. We are different.

I have nothing against fun. I highly recommend it.

SO, why the need to RISE above temptations of personality and the needs of the body then? You don't seem consistent.

So, ok ... I get it that you think Satan isn't real. I was actually asking you about Yahweh, though.

I'm just weird. But I think the whole "Yahweh" thing is of later origin and I rather dislike it.
I don't hang my hat on the Jewish scriptures.

Well, it IS weird that you consistently don't answer such a simple question.

It's only in the Bible that Yahweh is real, too. We aren't really asking if Satan is real. We are asking if Satan couldn't have been a competing god that the Bible authors wrote about so negatively to disparage some rival tribe's beliefs.

If that were true, then you could find him if you researched rival tribes.

Where, in their BOOK?
Sorry, they don't got one.

Otherwise, it is just speculation and that is neither here nor there.

You got it. You might speculate that the Bible authors wrote the "truth", and I speculate NOT.

Satan might have been a rival tribe's god.
We don't KNOW.

I haven't actually found a Satan anywhere.

I haven't found any GOD anywhere. We are talking about story book characters from a long time ago. Satan might have been a god that was maligned in the Bible for tribal reasons.

I mentioned Zoroastrians, but they have duality going on--maybe a bit more like what the Gnostics had. I do think that they somewhat influenced Syrian Christianity early on. I think this is where the singular mentions of Satan as the god of this world may come from.

Yeah, again, speculation.
Maybe this maybe that.

The point is... WE DON'T KNOW.

Maybe Satan was a rival tribe's god for all we know. Maybe the Bible got mistranslated along the way, and Satan was supposed to BE another god. MAYBE the story of Satan got messed up.

The point is... WHO KNOWS?

Satan is somewhat borrowed from the Zoroastrians.

And Yahweh too, right?

No.

How do you know THAT?
Do you have any evidence, or are you just SPECULATING ?

Again, the mythology of the cosmology of the Bible used as a topic of conversation is disingenuous if what is said in scripture is not grounds for rebuttal.

Not sure what you mean.

If we are into speculating as to the nature, the possibility of the existence of Satan apart from scripture as a god, then that needs to be compared to scripture as a general source for the mythos of Satan.

Speculation is speculation... It's just using our imagination. I can easily speculate that Satan was a god. There... I speculated. You can go ahead and use your imagination, and speculate that the Bible tells it the way it is. There. You speculated.

We both speculated.
Neither one of us has any FACTS.

I don't think it is as black and white as you think it is.

I'm not sure I am making a black or white case. I am merely saying that Satan MIGHT be a god. Why do you think that's a black or white position? It's just speculation.

The Bible was cited in the OP and a postulation was made--that Satan could be a god.

Yup.

The earliest source for all things Satan is the Bible whether it is true and believed or not.

Yup, and we have NO idea who the authors were or what they ORIGINALLY thought. All we have is the Bible we have. We don't know what came before. Maybe they all thought that Satan was a god, and the only guy in the bunch who could write was dyslectic and got it upside down. God was supposed to be the angel !!!!!

If for example, you wanted to suggest that the Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines, then you might actually have to cite what is written in the Bible in order to infer that and to even begin to research it.

If you say so... but I'm not sure what that has to do with Satan being a god or not.

Ha! To form a hypothesis!

I can make those up all day long. Easy for someone with an active imagination.

To suggest that the myth of Satan has possibly other sources as a competing god, one must look at when Satan is first referred to and how in the Bible--then go elsewhere in that period searching for similarities among other known religions. Even in speculating about a myth from the Bible, the Bible comes into play.

But we only HAVE the Bible. We don't know anything whatsoever about the authors of Satan. So, we are quite free to speculate. We can START with the Bible, but when we are speculating, we can USE our imaginations. RIGHT?

I do this all the time. I enjoy researching everything, digging deep into dark cobwebby corners and ferreting out possibilities. I like to question. I like to discuss. That is why I like lists like this: they give me ideas as to what to look into.

Yeah, so, did you find any evidence for the ORIGINAL Satan that is depicted in the Bible? Or are you just stuck like the rest of us with THAT version of Satan?

How....accurate is that version by your reckoning?
Oh, and I still have no idea if you think that Yahweh is real or not.

[catnip]

[Replying to Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by catnip]

It is one thing to establish a thread challenging the reality of Satan and demand some kind of proof of him apart from the Bible. It is quite another to imagine that Satan is a god elsewhere, a biblical character whose character is established by the Bible and even that fact is cited in the OP--and his role in the Bible.

Yeah, those are two different things.. and your point?

My point is, despite the fact that I have clearly stated it several times:

If we have postulated that Satan could in fact be a god in a competing religion, then the place to begin to search for that god would be in the Bible to establish when Satan is first mentioned, to examine changes in the perception of him in later references in the Bible lest he has begun to resemble a god not named the same, so we can look for said god in other cultures in the region that might have provided a model for what became Satan in the Bible. And, as I see you have pointed to special powers he had (that I do not see in scripture) then even that needs to be considered in order to draw comparisons with other gods.

OR

If we are merely postulating that Satan is really a god (???) then we still need to take a look at scripture for signs that he is. But again, why would a creator god create a god that would usurp him? Or even challenge him?

If I am writing a work of fiction, I could just use the name Satan--though my readers might be left completely confused if he doesn't relate to the commonly known character as is described in the Bible and later Christian culture.

So atheists can establish their discussion using the Bible, suggest that he could be a god in another religion--yes, currently there are "Satanists" but the only source for Satan and myths about him is the Bible.

Well, I think there is a lack of Satanists in here... try me.. I'm an atheist.

***sigh*** My point was simply that the only religion other than from the Judeo-Christian tradition that considers Satan, that I know of, is a fairly recent one.

Note that whether you are an atheist or not, I have stated that I have no belief in Satan myself.

There might be other texts with the same character in it.. but we are talking about the Bible Satan. Maybe the Bible talks bad about Satan because it was a competing god. And you know... the authors didn't quite LIKE the competing god for some reason, so called it.."evil". And you know, I made all of that up IN MY MIND... It's called "speculation".

Christians might speculate that ALL THE STORIES ARE TRUE.. just the way the Bible says they are.... or portrays them as being.. but that's PURE SPECULATION, too. Christians dont KNOW that the stories about Satan are true.. they just SPECULATE that the stories are true... but that doesn't mean others can't speculate DIFFERENTLY.

1) Again, I have not found a model for Satan outside of the Bible.
2) Even if we speculate about Satan being a competing god, if we are going to find him then we have to rely on scripture: when he was mentioned, his characteristics, what he does. Then we can look for him even if he had a name unrelated to the name "Satan".
3) Christians believe all sorts of things about Satan that are not written in the Bible because his image has been enhanced through the ages in the church, in literature and in popular culture. For example that he has cloven hooves and horns, assuming some of the characteristics of the god Pan.

In order to respond to biblically based fantasies and speculations about what is written, then the Bible, whether it is true or not, logically should be within bounds to respond the supposition that Satan might really be a competing god.

If we are talking about a story book character, it's fine to keep within bounds of the story. BUT if we also say that the character exists in REAL LIFE.. then we are OUT of the bounds of the story. But it's NEVER possible to PROVE that a story book character is REAL by pointing to THE STORY about him.

This is true. If we are speculating about any religion he might have had a godly role in, however, we must be able to recognize him. I see no reason to speculate about him otherwise.

I don't think this falls under the rule against using the Bible as proof of Satan--no one is proving Satan, they are required to be convincing that Satan is not a god to an atheist who suggested it. Purely fictional, of course.

You might want to prove that Satan can ONLY be imagined the way described in the Bible?... well.. no. Satan can be imagined in MANY ways.

Of course he can. I speculate about him in a metaphorical way. I still draw on scripture. That doesn't mean for a minute that I think Satan is real. But then I see the Virgin Birth as a metaphor for the birth of faith in the believer. At some level, both can be true but not literal.

Satan is real/not real: discussion about a character that some consider real
Suppose Satan is a god: discussion about whether or not a potentially fictional character could be a competing god. A fictional scenario for what is a now fictional character. That is why I said, "huh?" Neither one of us believe in Satan.

The BELIEF in Satan isn't the question. The possible NATURE of the story book character is.

We are speculating about the ORIGINS of the stories about Satan in the Bible... MAYBE, just MAYBE... Satan was a rival god who gets bad press in the BIBLE. After all, the Bible is PRO Yahweh and ANTI Satan.

Who KNOWS if the authors are telling us the whole truth about Satan?

Oh, heavens! That is what I meant when I said, "postulating that Satan is a competing god in another religion." Again, in order to figure that out, one must examine what the Bible says about him lest he has another name in another religion. I have found no other Satan.

Speculating about Satan requires consulting the mythology about him.

And NOBODY has said otherwise. It's just that the MYTHOLOGY or STORIES aren't EVIDENCE or PROOF. They are just STORIES. Where do the stories come from?... Satan might have been some god someone didn't like too much. Put him as the bad guy in THEIR book.. called the book Bible.

Whoever said they were evidence or proof? Satan is a character that plays particular roles that vary over the course of the biblical narrative. If he can be found in another religion previous to the Jewish religion, then we must begin our search in the Jewish scriptures.

And it logically follows that if there is no Satan then there is no possible role for Satan apart from what is described in the Bible.

You mean as a character in stories?

Yeah. At least historically. You could name any character Satan, I suppose.

Sure, Jesus is "Satan". Why not?
The Easter Bunny is Satan... why not be as meaningless as possible?

WHAT have you tried to demonstrate?

Could you try to follow--I even attempted to use parallels using other mythologies such as the Iliad and peoples such as the Philistines to show that it isn't JUST the Bible that might be the source of a character/incident/people that we might want to trace. And so even archaeologists would consult stories in the Bible when doing a dig in order to see what is said about the location they are digging in whether or no they expect to confirm what the Bible says about it. And that doesn't confirm the Bible stories at all--it just provides the basis we need for further research.

And it fails as an attack on those who believe in God and Satan as an argument.

The OP is meant as a question, not an attack.

I see most questions such as this as a form of attack,

Attack?
Attacking WHAT?
Attacking WHOM?

I suppose there are Christians who just can't tolerate that people ask them questions.
Must be harsh. Debate must be really tough.

I explained it very gently. And no, I have no intolerance as far as the subject of this thread goes. I am intolerant of the dismissal of any information that is found in the Bible as a means of discussing possibilities that Satan was really a god in a competing religion. I am a liberal Christian and, to the best of my knowledge, none of us believes that Satan is a real character. The Book of Job is a great literary work, but obviously it is fiction--we humans could not have first hand knowledge of what God said to Satan.

but that goes back to my beliefs about our natures and our view of what we need to do.

Are you telling us that the nature of Christians is that they consider questions as attacks?

No. You are reading into it things that are not there. The point of these discussions IS to present arguments and counter arguments.

One of these days, I promise to write an OP about that, but in the meantime, I will accept your suggestion that is merely a question.

Here is a hint: If it has a question mark at the end... it's most likely a question.

Yes, topics are presented here as questions.

I am especially amused about this because, very simply, Christianity would be very much BETTER if it weren't for enhancements given Satan outside of and apart from what is written in scripture!

Kinda hard to prove that one, isn't it?

It should be hard to prove that Satan's image has been enhanced in popular culture since biblical times? Why should it be?

Not that.

Hard to prove that Christianity would be very much BETTER if it weren't for "enhancements" .... how you gonna prove THAT? Go to that alternate reality to check?

The overblown image of Satan and Satan's power is contrary to faith in God. If you think about it, we Christians are to believe in God and Jesus Christ--but we are not required to believe in Satan and evil. It is not necessary to faith in God. It is a means of creating fear in order to convert people to Christianity for the wrong reasons, for threats of hell and damnation.

The Bible may not be proof that Satan exists,

Good, you got that part. It's not. It's also not proof that God exists.

Not necessary to miss the point by getting sidetracked by prejudices.

but it is the source of the concept of Satan

Well, for us it is... who KNOWS where the concept actually originated?

Someone might. I haven't found a plausible answer.

and a comparison between what people think about Satan according to popular culture and according to the Bible should not be against any rules,

Who said it was?

You are interrupting so much, I doubt that any point I was attempting to make was comprehended.

just as the biblical view of Satan could be cited in the OP to establish the question.

We are free to speculate about what the Bible means and where the concepts originated, because THAT info isn't FOUND in the Bible.

Yes, you did. You missed the point.

It should be no more so than Homer's Iliad should be against the rules in establishing the character of Odysseus.

If the Iliad was the ONLY source for what the character was like, sure. But then, we might also be able to SPECULATE where HOMER got the idea from. Maybe it predates Homer. MAYBE.. Homer didn't represent Odysseus accurately. MAYBE... there never was an Odysseus and so on. We can speculate until the cows come home.

Well, even if you are a Neoanalyst scholar and involved in the debate about the dating of the Epic Cycle vs the Homeric epics, even then you would be carefully considering anything said about him in the Iliad.

THE POINT IS.... there's not use pretending that the ONLY TRUE "Odysseus" is to be found in Homer. We are talking about BOOK CHARACTERS. Maybe true ones, maybe pure fiction. In the case of SATAN, maybe a god, maybe a "fallen angel"... or whatnot.

Meh, take your pick.

In either case, anything written about that character would be referred to and considered.

By withdrawing his grace from Israel, God permitted the tempter to prevail over them.

Well then, GOD might have been a "stronger" god.. Big deal. Doesn't mean Satan wasn't a god.

No, but it is indicative of the role that Satan played.

Yes, early on it says that he basically served God.

Yeah, so a god serving a god... who knows, right? They CALL Satan an "angel"... so what? It's just vague labels were talking about here.

*shrugs* Angels are traditionally messengers of God. I don't know what you mean by "vague labels". We can't change what the Bible says about Satan. It is what it is. We can only look at the description and use that to ferret out any similar characters elsewhere.

Some say he was like a prosecutor in God's court, but nowhere does it imply he had godly powers.

So what? MAYBE the authors of the Bible had it IN for a rival tribe and their Satan god.
WHO KNOWS... right?

This is terribly repetitious.

Some people just might take whatever the BIBLE says is true. Who knows?
Might be a pack of lies for all we know.

Fine. Sure. But speculating requires knowing about him even as a mythological creature.

Well, I don't. But.. that's the story.
All kinds of stories in the Bible.

Who knows which one is true or not, right?

I don't see that as the debate here. IF Satan is a god, then some means to find that reference should be available, true or not. We are speculating here.

It also seems that he can stand a lot of heat, since he was thrown into a lake of fire and survives. Neat trick !

I dunno. Some Christians think that people will be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity. I don't take it that way . . .

Yeah, hard to figure out what ANY of it means. Same thing with that "Satan" guy. Hard to know what it is, really. It's all over the place.

It must hold some interest for you or you wouldn't be talking about it.

I actually asked you if you believed that Yahweh was real.. but never mind, I suppose. I am not too sure what you are saying exactly. Are you saying that these Bible characters are only metaphors?

Yahweh was a lower god in the Canaanite echelon. In fact, the list I consulted listed him as last on the list. This may be where the idea comes into scripture that early on he was a god of war and may explain some of the early stories told about him of conquests that archaeologists can't seem to find a match for between the fall of a place, such as Jericho, and the Hebrews.

I don't know if you think yes or no on that question.
Maybe this and maybe that.

I do not consider the Tetragrammaton to be Yahweh. I told you that Yahweh was a lesser god in the Canaanite pantheon.

Maybe Satan was considered a god at some time by some people somewhere. And maybe one day I will know if you think Yahweh ....... ah never mind.

If so, the name has changed.

When we act apart from God, we are ruled by Satan.

That's like saying "If you aren't with us, you are again' us."

Well, I think that is what is actually reflected in the Bible.

Maybe it is, and maybe it's not. We can all speculate, right?

No, a careful reading of what is written is all that is necessary. It doesn't prove it to be true, but that it is the basis for what people believe.

The whole objective of faith is to rise above the temptations of the personality, the attribution of the needs of the body which--in scripture--is explained by Paul to be the source of sin.

OHHHHH you are against people fulfilling their physical NEEDS... yikes. I usually urge people to have as much fun as possible in life. We are different.

I have nothing against fun. I highly recommend it.

SO, why the need to RISE above temptations of personality and the needs of the body then? You don't seem consistent.

I suppose that you think I am inconsistent with some branch of Christianity, the Christian cliche? Most likely.

So, ok ... I get it that you think Satan isn't real. I was actually asking you about Yahweh, though.

I'm just weird. But I think the whole "Yahweh" thing is of later origin and I rather dislike it.
I don't hang my hat on the Jewish scriptures.

Well, it IS weird that you consistently don't answer such a simple question.

I did answer it!

It's only in the Bible that Yahweh is real, too. We aren't really asking if Satan is real. We are asking if Satan couldn't have been a competing god that the Bible authors wrote about so negatively to disparage some rival tribe's beliefs.

Yes. I know. And we would begin with what the Bible says in order to begin to search for him elsewhere.

If that were true, then you could find him if you researched rival tribes.

Where, in their BOOK?
Sorry, they don't got one.

There are other ways of checking what rival tribes believed. And all the rival tribes are also mentioned in the Bible! That's where we begin, then try to find out more about them.

Otherwise, it is just speculation and that is neither here nor there.

You got it. You might speculate that the Bible authors wrote the "truth", and I speculate NOT.

Satan might have been a rival tribe's god.
We don't KNOW.

Now the discussion is really deteriorating. I am not speculating that the Bible authors wrote the "truth". I am talking about how to go about finding any possible information on the subject at hand.

I haven't actually found a Satan anywhere.

I haven't found any GOD anywhere. We are talking about story book characters from a long time ago. Satan might have been a god that was maligned in the Bible for tribal reasons.

Then it should be possible to find a reference to Satan outside of the Bible--perhaps a slight difference in the name, some identifiable characteristic, etc.

I mentioned Zoroastrians, but they have duality going on--maybe a bit more like what the Gnostics had. I do think that they somewhat influenced Syrian Christianity early on. I think this is where the singular mentions of Satan as the god of this world may come from.

Yeah, again, speculation.
Maybe this maybe that.

The point is... WE DON'T KNOW.

Maybe Satan was a rival tribe's god for all we know. Maybe the Bible got mistranslated along the way, and Satan was supposed to BE another god. MAYBE the story of Satan got messed up.

The point is... WHO KNOWS?

We can't know unless we search.

Satan is somewhat borrowed from the Zoroastrians.

And Yahweh too, right?

No.

How do you know THAT?
Do you have any evidence, or are you just SPECULATING ?

I told you above. Now repeatedly.

Again, the mythology of the cosmology of the Bible used as a topic of conversation is disingenuous if what is said in scripture is not grounds for rebuttal.

Not sure what you mean.

If we are into speculating as to the nature, the possibility of the existence of Satan apart from scripture as a god, then that needs to be compared to scripture as a general source for the mythos of Satan.

Speculation is speculation... It's just using our imagination. I can easily speculate that Satan was a god. There... I speculated. You can go ahead and use your imagination, and speculate that the Bible tells it the way it is. There. You speculated.

Since you cannot seem to comprehend that we have to begin somewhere if we are going to find a source for the Satan in the Bible, then we will remain ignorant of any such being--and have no answer for the OP.

We both speculated.
Neither one of us has any FACTS.

FACTS are not required for myth.

I don't think it is as black and white as you think it is.

I'm not sure I am making a black or white case. I am merely saying that Satan MIGHT be a god. Why do you think that's a black or white position? It's just speculation.

Why bring it up if it isn't of any interest? Why bother to spend hours on repetitious posts if it is of no import? I don't have that much life.

The earliest source for all things Satan is the Bible whether it is true and believed or not.

Yup, and we have NO idea who the authors were or what they ORIGINALLY thought. All we have is the Bible we have. We don't know what came before. Maybe they all thought that Satan was a god, and the only guy in the bunch who could write was dyslectic and got it upside down. God was supposed to be the angel !!!!!

For crying out loud! Yes, all we have that we know of at this time is the Bible--but that is where the thread is that we can follow to find out more.

If for example, you wanted to suggest that the Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines, then you might actually have to cite what is written in the Bible in order to infer that and to even begin to research it.

If you say so... but I'm not sure what that has to do with Satan being a god or not.

HOW TO RESEARCH A SUBJECT: BEGIN WITH KNOWN REFERENCES AND EXAMINE THEM FOR CLUES AS TO WHERE TO SEARCH FURTHER.

Ha! To form a hypothesis!

I can make those up all day long. Easy for someone with an active imagination.

Such as someone that wishes to speculate that Satan was a god in a competing religion.

To suggest that the myth of Satan has possibly other sources as a competing god, one must look at when Satan is first referred to and how in the Bible--then go elsewhere in that period searching for similarities among other known religions. Even in speculating about a myth from the Bible, the Bible comes into play.

But we only HAVE the Bible. We don't know anything whatsoever about the authors of Satan. So, we are quite free to speculate. We can START with the Bible, but when we are speculating, we can USE our imaginations. RIGHT?

I suppose. But it doesn't establish anything at all. What is the use of that?

I do this all the time. I enjoy researching everything, digging deep into dark cobwebby corners and ferreting out possibilities. I like to question. I like to discuss. That is why I like lists like this: they give me ideas as to what to look into.

Yeah, so, did you find any evidence for the ORIGINAL Satan that is depicted in the Bible? Or are you just stuck like the rest of us with THAT version of Satan?

How....accurate is that version by your reckoning?
Oh, and I still have no idea if you think that Yahweh is real or not.

Perhaps, if you read what I wrote . . . you would already know the answers to all these . . . whatever caused you to say them. Don't bother with more repetition. It is useless.

Yes, I have searched for other sources for Satan and no, I have not definitively found any character that exhibits similar abilities/roles. But I already said that too.

[JLB32168]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

While I don’t agree with your conclusions about the reality of Satan, CN, I can appreciate your frustration at having salient points ignored and/or having your responses chopped up so that non-arguments are addressed.

I have already explained on this thread that one doesn’t have to accept that Satan is real to debate whether or not he is a God. I gave the example of a debate on the Valkyries. Two people could debate whether or not the Valkyries were arbitrary and capricious or justified in their choices of who would live or die on the battlefield and one didn’t have to be an adherent to Norse Asatru. Of course, the supposed idiocy of belief in deities was all that any skeptic had of interest and my response was, “Then why did you ask the question? Do you think that the best way to say, ‘belief in gods is stupid’ is to ask a question on whether or not Satan is a god on equal footing with the Hebrew deity? I don’t see the effectiveness of that but more power to ya’.�

I have already explained that there is no other mention of Satan outside of the Judeo-Christian scriptures so to simply say, “The Bible is not considered an authority� – as if nothing useful can be gleaned from it w/regards to Satan means a pointless discussion will take place. As I think you’ve suggested, if Satan is another god being maligned by the Hebrew conquerors of Canaan for the sake up boosting up their deity, then conceivably some mention of him should be found in other Bronze Age literature by another society. It’s highly unlikely that the Hebrews obliterated all evidence of a previous society – especially since their own book says that they didn’t do what they were supposed to do – wipe everyone out.

Anyway, as I’m sure you noticed, the discussion quickly goes to “You’ve no conclusive evidence that you’re deity exists,� without addressing the question - if it's ever addressed at all. My response has typically been, “Duh – really? You mean we didn't prove God exists?�

Bravo on your composure.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]



Satan is a Bible character.

It is one thing to establish a thread challenging the reality of Satan and demand some kind of proof of him apart from the Bible. It is quite another to imagine that Satan is a god elsewhere, a biblical character whose character is established by the Bible and even that fact is cited in the OP--and his role in the Bible.

Yeah, those are two different things.. and your point?

My point is, despite the fact that I have clearly stated it several times:

If we have postulated that Satan could in fact be a god in a competing religion, then the place to begin to search for that god would be in the Bible to establish when Satan is first mentioned, to examine changes in the perception of him in later references in the Bible lest he has begun to resemble a god not named the same, so we can look for said god in other cultures in the region that might have provided a model for what became Satan in the Bible. And, as I see you have pointed to special powers he had (that I do not see in scripture) then even that needs to be considered in order to draw comparisons with other gods.

There are all KINDS of gods. Satan might be a special kind of god that is called an angel... or whatnot. And of course, the Bible is the source for the Satan in the Bible. But as most other supernatural beings in the Bible, their "nature" isn't at all very clear. So, we are free to speculate as to what they might be. And the Bible can't be PROOF for our opinions about the Bible.

OR

If we are merely postulating that Satan is really a god (???)

Yeah... that's it.

The OP asks if it's possible. I say yes.
I don't have any proof... other than what it says in the Bible and my very own imagination.

then we still need to take a look at scripture for signs that he is.

I found those "signs".

But again, why would a creator god create a god that would usurp him? Or even challenge him?

Supernatural stories don't have to make much sense. I'm not going to say that the Bible does.

Myths are weird.

But we are free to speculate why a god would do that. Or we could speculate why an author would make that kind of thing up. We could speculate forever.

If I am writing a work of fiction, I could just use the name Satan--though my readers might be left completely confused if he doesn't relate to the commonly known character as is described in the Bible and later Christian culture.

Right. People do that kind of thing all the time.
There must be thousands of different versions of Satan in popular literature by now.

All made up..... Humans are very inventive.

I still don't know what your point is, frankly. Is it that we find the character Satan in the Bible?

[JLB32168]

So, we are free to speculate as to what they might be. And the Bible can't be PROOF for our opinions about the Bible.

In other words, we can chuck the only reference to Satan in ancient literature and pull speculations from our colon all the day long. I know that’s not what you’re really saying but it is really what you’re saying.

The OP asks if it's possible. I say yes. I don't have any proof... other than what it says in the Bible and my very own imagination.

Yes – since the Bible isn’t authoritative on who Satan is perhaps he’s a flower or the theorem that joins Einstein's and Hawking's ideas together. After all we're just speculating for the sake of speculating apparently.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 112 by catnip]

Hi, catnip.

This is what I understand to be your position so far:

1. You don't believe in Satan
2. You probably believe in God
3. I have no idea if you think that Satan can be a god or not.
4. You have difficulty with the concept that a text cannot be used to prove what it says.

So atheists can establish their discussion using the Bible, suggest that he could be a god in another religion--yes, currently there are "Satanists" but the only source for Satan and myths about him is the Bible.

Well, I think there is a lack of Satanists in here... try me.. I'm an atheist.

***sigh*** My point was simply that the only religion other than from the Judeo-Christian tradition that considers Satan, that I know of, is a fairly recent one.

Note that whether you are an atheist or not, I have stated that I have no belief in Satan myself.

I don't see how your point about how recent the concept "Satan" is has anything to do with the OP. So what if it's recent? .... The OP asks if we can interpret the character as a god. I say yes. You are.... not saying yes or no.... I don't know WHAT you are saying, really. You seem to be complaining ( at length ) about not being able to use the Bible to prove itself.

For the purposes of the debate, it doesn't matter one bit if you believe or don't believe in the Bible character "Satan". We are only speculating if Satan can be a god or not.

On a side note, I find it interesting that you haven't yet given us a clear yes/no answer to the question "Do you believe in the Bible character "God"?

It's interesting to me how someone could DISBELIEVE in the existence of Satan and believe in God. I think it would make for an interesting discussion, because it doesn't make much sense to me.

( send me a PM if you have any interest in a new thread about your apparent lack of consistency, I'll be glad to create it )

[Monta]

[Replying to post 105 by Blastcat]


"Monta wrote:
Satan has no power whatsover except what man gives it.

Could you perhaps cite where it says that in the Bible?.. or are you just voicing your opinion? "

When Peter contradicted Jesus, he said to him - get thee behind me satan.
Pater was only a man.
Other descriptions give it are adversary, slanderer, accuser.
Satan is not some outside force acting on human race but people acting against people.
When Chavez called America that great satan or when he said in UN, devil came through here yesterday, he was describing people and their caracteristics.

Anyone can become a satan. Child abusers are satans.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 117 by Monta]

"Monta wrote:
Satan has no power whatsover except what man gives it.

Could you perhaps cite where it says that in the Bible?.. or are you just voicing your opinion? "

When Peter contradicted Jesus, he said to him - get thee behind me satan.
Pater was only a man.

And how does that quote mean that Satan has no power whatsoever except what man gives it.?

Is it the ONLY way the story can be interpreted?

It could mean that Peter wasn't really being confronted by the actual Satan but a delusion or hallucination. Does the story say?

It could mean that Satan that day allowed himself to be influenced by a mere mortal for some unknown reason.. does the story say?

It could mean that Satan only operates in the subconscious, or is a metaphor for the subconscious, or a metaphor for temptation, and so on and so on. In any case, a "god" is a very vague term. It could mean just about anything. Even IF humans have more "power" than Satan... let's say for a minute... doesn't mean that Satan isn't a feeble kind of a god. My point is that we can have ALL kinds of opinions about Biblical stories. We could say, for example, that "God" represents something that we would like, and "Satan" represents something that we don't. Deify both, you got gods.

One "good" god, one "evil" god.

Its all up to how we interpret the stories.

But you make a good case.... Peter seems to have "power" over Satan in THIS story. Too bad that Job didn't have the same kind of power, though. Sometimes humans AREN'T more powerful than Satan.

Right?

Other descriptions give it are adversary, slanderer, accuser.

Yup, could be an adversarial, slandering, accusing god. I don't have any problem with that. There are all kinds of gods.

Satan is not some outside force acting on human race but people acting against people.

Again, you seem to present your OPINION as a fact. Be careful of making assertions like that. You are needlessly opening yourself up to criticism.

You might want to write it this way in stead and make the statement WAY MORE acceptable :

Satan MIGHT NOT BE some outside force acting on human race but people acting against people.

If you would have put it that way, I'd have to agree with you... sure... maybe Satan might not be some outside force. Who knows? BUT the way you put it, it's a truth claim, and can be challenged. In fact, I do challenge it.

How do you prove THAT truth claim?

When Chavez called America that great satan or when he said in UN, devil came through here yesterday, he was describing people and their caracteristics.

Language is fluid. People use words in all kinds of interesting ways. I don't know what that proves about the Bible character.

Anyone can become a satan. Child abusers are satans.

We can use any word in a metaphor. Are you saying that Satan and the other supernatural beings in the Bible are all only METAPHORS in old stories?

I would say that it has a high probability of being true if you did.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 115 by JLB32168]

So, we are free to speculate as to what they might be. And the Bible can't be PROOF for our opinions about the Bible.

In other words, we can chuck the only reference to Satan in ancient literature and pull speculations from our colon all the day long. I know that’s not what you’re really saying but it is really what you’re saying.

it's really NOT but it really IS... ?

I have to remember that one... priceless !!

We have been trying to explain to you over and over again why what it says in the Bible can't be a proof for what it says in the Bible. I have repeatedly answered you that we are NOT chucking out the Bible... it's just that we can't take it as proof for itself.

This seems to be ... hard to understand.
It's a point of logic.

I would be happy to try to explain it to you in PM, or on another thread as that discussion is VERY tangential to the OP.

The OP asks if it's possible. I say yes. I don't have any proof... other than what it says in the Bible and my very own imagination.

Yes – since the Bible isn’t authoritative on who Satan is perhaps he’s a flower or the theorem that joins Einstein's and Hawking's ideas together. After all we're just speculating for the sake of speculating apparently.

You are so CLOSE...... to what I perceive to be the actual point of the OP. YES, we are merely speculating. We are talking what the Bible says and SPECULATING about it.

Exactly.

That's what Christians do. But then, the Christians go one step further.
They ( at least some of them do..... ) take their FAVORITE speculations as the TRUTH. And as far as critical thinkers go, that's a step too far.

Does that make any sense to you?

[JLB32168]

We have been trying to explain to you over and over again why what it says in the Bible can't be a proof for what it says in the Bible. I have repeatedly answered you that we are NOT chucking out the Bible... it's just that we can't take it as proof for itself.

Catnip stated it perfectly when he said that the only mention of Satan is the Bible; therefore, we must consider what it says first. Then we might be able to see what other societies said about this Satan person (or some equivalent of it/him/her.)

You are so CLOSE...... to what I perceive to be the actual point of the OP. YES, we are merely speculating. We are talking what the Bible says and SPECULATING about it.

Okay so Satan might be the theoretical framework in which the point-like particles of particle physics are replaced by one-dimensional objects (sincere we’re speculating for the sake of speculating and not much else.)

They ( at least some of them do..... ) take their FAVORITE speculations as the TRUTH. And as far as critical thinkers go, that's a step too far.

And the best way to drive this home, IYO, is to just throw up speculations about anything and everything. All things are lawful.

I personally think it seems like a stupid exercise but whatever blows a person’s kilt up, I guess.