What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?
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jgh7
What Fraction of People Will Make it to Heaven?
Post #1I've read in the bible that many will not enter the gates of Heaven. I was wondering what others think about this statistically speaking. So that's what this poll is for. If you have some verses or ideas backing up your opinion, feel free to give them.
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ttruscott
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Post #111
I chose a quarter or less less because the question was restricted to humanity, to those people created in the image of GOD who chose to be sinful, either temporarily or eternally.
Being born as a human is spoken of as being sown into the world and only two types of people are sown into this world, the people of the kingdom called the good seed and the people of the evil one called the weeds, Matt 13:36-39.
Broad is the way, narrow the gate means that there are more eternally evil people born as humans than sinful people of the kingdom born here to be redeemed and to become heaven ready like the vast majority of those created in HIS image, the uncountable trillions of angels who are elect and holy by their own free will and have never sinned nor ever will.
Being born as a human is spoken of as being sown into the world and only two types of people are sown into this world, the people of the kingdom called the good seed and the people of the evil one called the weeds, Matt 13:36-39.
Broad is the way, narrow the gate means that there are more eternally evil people born as humans than sinful people of the kingdom born here to be redeemed and to become heaven ready like the vast majority of those created in HIS image, the uncountable trillions of angels who are elect and holy by their own free will and have never sinned nor ever will.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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tam
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Post #112
Peace to you!
I think you might be overlooking something.BusB wrote:First, let's establish the fact that there is a scriptural difference between a king and a prince:tam wrote: Peace to you BusB,
BusB wrote: [Replying to post 86 by tam]
I fully agree with you that the 144,000 will live and reign as king/priests right here on earth. When one digs deep enough into the Old Testament they find that to be the only conclusion possible.
And there are other ways to understand the New Testament verses which seem to indicate otherwise.
Not just the 144 000 reign with Christ during the 'thousand years'. The 144 000 are a sub portion of the great multitude that makes up the Bride, and all reign with Christ for the thousand years.
What makes the 144 000 different is that a) they are sealed before the loosing of the four winds; before the great tribulation, and b) they are descended from literal Israel - 12 000 each from the 12 listed tribes.
That is why those tribes are specifically listed by name.
They are the remnant that God reserved for Himself from Israel (and He always reserved a remnant for Himself), so that Israel was guaranteed to have at least 144 000 places, due to His promise and love to/for Abraham.
However, it is also written that those who reign with Christ are from every tribe, nation, people, tongue language.
They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation... Rev 5:9
Hence, there are more than just 144 000 (and the great crowd was a number that no one could count). ALL are Christian though; ALL are anointed with holy spirit before Christ returns.
**
And while they do reign upon the earth with Christ, they also went with Christ to heaven for the marriage. Hence, the Bride (as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem) can "come down out of heaven".
One must be IN a place before one can come down out of that place.
You may have understood that already; I just wanted to clarify.
Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
1 Chronicles 24:6 Then She-maiah the son of Ne-thanel the secretary of the Levites wrote them down before the king and the princes and Zadok the priest and A-hime-lech the son of A-bia-thar and the heads of the fathers of the priests and of the Levites, one paternal house being picked out for El-e-azar and one being picked out for Itha-mar.
God speaking to the ten tribe kingdom of Israel at Hosea 13:10-11
10 Where, then, is your king, that he may save you in all your cities, and your judges, [concerning] whom you said, Do give me a king and princes?
11 I proceeded to give you a king in my anger, and I shall take [him] away in my fury.
Kings use princes to control over jurisdictional districts: See 1Kiings 20:14; Esther 1:1; Ecclesiastes 2:8; Ezekiel 19:8.
Conclusion:
Christ IS the King.
He shares His reign with His Bride (which includes the 144 000 and a number that no one can count). He appoints her as having authority over the nations.
He is the King, He shares His reign with His Bride.
(please note that Christ is also called Prince of princes)
One more question:
Do not all who are in Christ take part in the first resurrection?
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
From the great multitude (or, great crowd) come the princes who rule over the many jurisdictional districts which will exist in the new earth.
Where did Christ say that this will happen?
Why can't the Bride (made of people from every tribe, nation, people and tongue - INCLUDING 12000 from each of the 12 tribes listed in revelation), do this themselves? Appointed by their King (Christ)?
We who belong to Christ are being trained by Christ now; trained in mercy, in love, in truth, in righteousness. So that we will be equipped to reign with Him in His Kingdom, then.Even as the king/priests need to be readied first, the princely controllers of their jurisdictional districts also must be readied shortly thereafter as a beginning of order in the new earth.
Who are these princes that you are referring to?
Thus the great multitude are not kings like the 144,000 who represent Christ's rulership to the people.
The Bride (which includes the 144 000, but is not just the 144 000) reign WITH Christ. He is also reigning.
Where does Christ teach this?Those princes of the great multitude represent those kings who represent Christ doing so only in a princely capacity.
Where among the great multitude is there mention of some of them being princes? Where among the great multitude is there mention of those princes representing the 144 000?
The great multitude are ALL before the throne of God, they are ALL serving God day and night in his temple. And it is 'the Lamb at the center of the throne' who 'will be their shepherd...' (rev 7:15-17)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Post #113
problem is carnal man cannot choose God. God choose you and you have no choice. The word freewill or choice are not found anywhere in the NT when it comes to someone freely choosing his own salvation. The word freewill is not even found in the Bible except for the Freewill Offering in the OT; which has nothing to do with salvation even as an example. God saves us by His grace, the and only then can carnal man have faith to believe in God and be saved. I also showed him that God caused the fall inttruscott wrote: I chose a quarter or less less because the question was restricted to humanity, to those people created in the image of GOD who chose to be sinful, either temporarily or eternally.
Being born as a human is spoken of as being sown into the world and only two types of people are sown into this world, the people of the kingdom called the good seed and the people of the evil one called the weeds, Matt 13:36-39.
Broad is the way, narrow the gate means that there are more eternally evil people born as humans than sinful people of the kingdom born here to be redeemed and to become heaven ready like the vast majority of those created in HIS image, the uncountable trillions of angels who are elect and holy by their own free will and have never sinned nor ever will.
In John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) and I will add forces him
Post #114
[Replying to post 112 by tam]
The overcomers are God's elect.There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (Gods elect) and everyone else.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The second death is death killed by death or the end of death.
The overcomers are God's elect.There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (Gods elect) and everyone else.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The second death is death killed by death or the end of death.
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tam
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Post #115
Peace to you Benoni,
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to say that the multitude are excluded from sitting on thrones because they are described as being before the throne of God, serving Him in His temple, all dressed in white, when John sees them? But those who overcome (those who are being spoken to in the seven letters to the seven congregations) are described in many ways at various times. Here are the promises my Lord made to them:Benoni wrote: [Replying to post 112 by tam]
The overcomers are God's elect.There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (Gods elect) and everyone else.
Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 3: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
To him who overcomes I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Be faithful even to the point of death and I will give you the crown of life.
He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations ' - He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like potter - just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star.
They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never erase his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
(so he who overcomes will be dressed in white, just as the multitude is dressed in white)
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(edited one part out for a moment...)
I do not understand what point you are making and how it pertains to my post, sorry. Could you explain?The second death is death killed by death or the end of death.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Last edited by tam on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post #116
[Replying to tam]
Just because they are wearing a white rob does not making them an over comer. God's elect not the great multitudes BEFORE the throne will rule and reign with him this is the narrow way. Just because you are a believer does not make you an overcome
Just because they are wearing a white rob does not making them an over comer. God's elect not the great multitudes BEFORE the throne will rule and reign with him this is the narrow way. Just because you are a believer does not make you an overcome
You posted on the second death which is death killed by death. The reason the overcomer will not go though the second death is they already haveBlessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
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tam
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Post #117
Peace to you,
[Replying to tam]
But the great multitude DO overcome; they overcome the trials and persecution during the great tribulation; they are those who remain faithful to Christ until the end.
Already have gone through the second death (the lake of fire)?
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15
Some of the Bride don't even go through the first death (those who are alive when Christ returns NEVER die, they are caught up and changed).
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
[Replying to tam]
Just because they are wearing a white rob does not making them an over comer. God's elect not the great multitudes BEFORE the throne will rule and reign with him this is the narrow way. Just because you are a believer does not make you an overcome
But the great multitude DO overcome; they overcome the trials and persecution during the great tribulation; they are those who remain faithful to Christ until the end.
You posted on the second death which is death killed by death. The reason the overcomer will not go though the second death is they already haveBlessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Already have gone through the second death (the lake of fire)?
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15
Some of the Bride don't even go through the first death (those who are alive when Christ returns NEVER die, they are caught up and changed).
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Post #118
[Replying to post 112 by tam]
I respect the fact that you show yourself to be a true thinker. Your responses are obviously well thought through and that makes you a pleasure to converse with.
That has to do with the Davidic Covenant " aka " Gods covenant to king David.
All the kings of Israel represented a King in heaven who was far greater than themselves. Those kings of Israel were actually said to sit on Gods throne at the right hand of God the same as does Jesus.
I expect it will require study and deliberation before you can know this. But maybe you already know these things and just need to recall them to memory.
If not, dont waste what I told you. Put it to the test in the OT as you investigate further.
God is not showing partiality. He merely gives to us what we are ready and able to receive, and no more until we are ready and able to receive more.
Does that make the 144,000 better than us if we are one who proves not to mature as fast? The way this wicked world judges things it would. But it doesnt work that way among the humble of God. Whether we mature faster so as to be ready to receive part in the first resurrection or we mature slower and must wait for the second resurrection. God loves us equally and does with us only what he must do in our best interest.
I previously said: From the great multitude (or, great crowd) come the princes who rule over the many jurisdictional districts which will exist in the new earth.
You asked:
It may take more time for you to fully appreciate this as it must be learned through our study of the Bible coupled with prayer and a sincere heart desiring to know matter not what it ends up revealing about the accuracy of our past beliefs. Sadly though, some people just seem to be unable to accept being found wrong. They seem to prefer to think themselves right more than they desire to find what is right. You dont impress me as one of that type. Your responses seem to scream sincerity and hunger for truth.
Anyone who farms a wheat field knows that there is an early harvest of firstfruits and a later harvest of the bulk of the wheat. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest. The great crowd are a part of the later harvest.
The same with those who because of the passage of time have fallen asleep in death. Some are in line to be resurrected as firstfruits of that early harvest while the bulk of them will be resurrected as a part of the later harvest.
This is the pattern Jesus taught us.
I previously said: Even as the king/priests need to be readied first, the princely controllers of their jurisdictional districts also must be readied shortly thereafter as a beginning of order in the new earth.
You stated:
The scriptures discuss this but I would have a book for a post if I went into detail here.
I previously said: Thus the great multitude are not kings like the 144,000 who represent Christ's rulership to the people.
The king of queens is a television sitcom.
I previously said: Those princes of the great multitude represent those kings who represent Christ doing so only in a princely capacity.
Then you will come to know whether I am right or I am wrong.
That is possible.I think you might be overlooking something.
I respect the fact that you show yourself to be a true thinker. Your responses are obviously well thought through and that makes you a pleasure to converse with.
While that is true, Christ is called the King of kings; not the King of queens.Christ IS the King.
He shares His reign with His Bride (which includes the 144 000 and a number that no one can count). He appoints her as having authority over the nations.
He is the King, He shares His reign with His Bride.
That has to do with the Davidic Covenant " aka " Gods covenant to king David.
All the kings of Israel represented a King in heaven who was far greater than themselves. Those kings of Israel were actually said to sit on Gods throne at the right hand of God the same as does Jesus.
He was called a prince long before he was ever called a king. He acted as a prince toward Gods people Israel. He served as prince representing the true King over all, Jehovah God. And for that reason he can be seen at places being prostrated to by worshipers of God as though he were God. They were in effect bowing to God as their King through him.(please note that Christ is also called Prince of princes)
I expect it will require study and deliberation before you can know this. But maybe you already know these things and just need to recall them to memory.
If not, dont waste what I told you. Put it to the test in the OT as you investigate further.
Only those who have perfected the holiness in their inner man as was modeled by Christ the man when he was here in the flesh. The great multitude (or, great crowd) have not yet perfected holiness after the model of Christ the man. That is why they yet must be led by the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. Revelation 7: 17One more question:
Do not all who are in Christ take part in the first resurrection?
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
God is not showing partiality. He merely gives to us what we are ready and able to receive, and no more until we are ready and able to receive more.
Does that make the 144,000 better than us if we are one who proves not to mature as fast? The way this wicked world judges things it would. But it doesnt work that way among the humble of God. Whether we mature faster so as to be ready to receive part in the first resurrection or we mature slower and must wait for the second resurrection. God loves us equally and does with us only what he must do in our best interest.
I previously said: From the great multitude (or, great crowd) come the princes who rule over the many jurisdictional districts which will exist in the new earth.
You asked:
This is seen in the Old Testament by how God organized Israel. That was a prophetic pattern of things to come. Not knowing these prophetic patterns which were established under that Old Law Covenant leaves many to have a Jesus of their own opinion.Where did Christ say that this will happen?
It may take more time for you to fully appreciate this as it must be learned through our study of the Bible coupled with prayer and a sincere heart desiring to know matter not what it ends up revealing about the accuracy of our past beliefs. Sadly though, some people just seem to be unable to accept being found wrong. They seem to prefer to think themselves right more than they desire to find what is right. You dont impress me as one of that type. Your responses seem to scream sincerity and hunger for truth.
Because it wouldnt be realistic. Not everyone matures at the same rate and therefore not all can be firstfruits of the harvest. It is unrealistic to think that the only ones left alive out of the great tribulation were firstfruits. That would mean the entire later harvest died.Why can't the Bride (made of people from every tribe, nation, people and tongue - INCLUDING 12000 from each of the 12 tribes listed in revelation), do this themselves? Appointed by their King (Christ)?
Anyone who farms a wheat field knows that there is an early harvest of firstfruits and a later harvest of the bulk of the wheat. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest. The great crowd are a part of the later harvest.
The same with those who because of the passage of time have fallen asleep in death. Some are in line to be resurrected as firstfruits of that early harvest while the bulk of them will be resurrected as a part of the later harvest.
This is the pattern Jesus taught us.
I previously said: Even as the king/priests need to be readied first, the princely controllers of their jurisdictional districts also must be readied shortly thereafter as a beginning of order in the new earth.
You stated:
If we are one who perfects that now then we will no doubt be a part of his perfect body as a firstfruits. If not, it isnt like he is throwing us away. He is going to give us the additional help we need. But he is holy and the actual entry into his body requires that we be actually holy. Until then holiness, just as righteousness, is only imputed to us on the basis of the ransom so that he can work with us to get us to that point of actual holiness and righteousness.We who belong to Christ are being trained by Christ now; trained in mercy, in love, in truth, in righteousness. So that we will be equipped to reign with Him in His Kingdom, then.
The scriptures discuss this but I would have a book for a post if I went into detail here.
You will know the answer when you study more about ancient Israel and how God had its pattern of government laid out.Who are these princes that you are referring to?
I previously said: Thus the great multitude are not kings like the 144,000 who represent Christ's rulership to the people.
As I said before, he is the king of kings aka the king of or over all kings of this earth. He is never called the king of queens.The Bride (which includes the 144 000, but is not just the 144 000) reign WITH Christ. He is also reigning.
The king of queens is a television sitcom. I previously said: Those princes of the great multitude represent those kings who represent Christ doing so only in a princely capacity.
You are getting a little wound up it seems. Relax and keep studying and praying and desiring truth.Where does Christ teach this?
Where among the great multitude is there mention of some of them being princes? Where among the great multitude is there mention of those princes representing the 144 000?
The great multitude are ALL before the throne of God, they are ALL serving God day and night in his temple. And it is 'the Lamb at the center of the throne' who 'will be their shepherd...' (rev 7:15-17)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Then you will come to know whether I am right or I am wrong.
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tam
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Post #119
Peace again to you BusB,
Brides are also women... but the Bride of Christ consists of both men and women. Kings are men, but there are women among those who reign with Christ as kings and priests.
You are saying that some who are in Christ (Christians) do not take part in the first resurrection?
They remain dead until after the thousand year reign?
Because there are only two resurrections:
The first resurrection: for those who are in Christ (Christians/anointed ones). Both those who have died before Christ returns and those who are still alive when He returns.
The second resurrection: the resurrection of the dead, for (most of) those who died before Christ and for all those who died after Christ but who were not Christian.
If you are suggesting that some Christians take part in the first resurrection and some Christians take part in the second resurrection, could you present your reasons for thinking this? Because I do not see where my Lord taught this.
Nor did Paul teach that:
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1Corinth 15:23
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1Corinth 15:20
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1Thess 4:15-17
So those who belong to Christ; those who are IN Christ; are resurrected upon His return.
That is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Where did Christ say that this will happen?
I know what verses you are using to support your theology. You listed them. But people support all manner of theologies in that way; and many of them are in conflict.
That being said, that pattern has already been 'fulfilled': the King (Christ) shares His reign with His Bride (who reign with Him as kings and priests).
Many people study the bible, coupled with prayer. I cannot speak for the nature of people's hearts. Many people also come up with many conflicting ideas, using this method.
If one wants to know the truth... then should one not come to the One who IS the Truth?
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
It is true that there are people who want to hear only what they WANT to hear; and if what they WANT to hear is not the truth, then they do not want to hear the truth. And so they do not hear the truth.
So how can one know if what one believes is true... or just what one wants to be true... except to test that thing against Christ (the Truth)? Asking HIM to show us what is true.
Then, at the first resurrection, those who belong to Him.
Then, at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), all the dead who were not in Christ - both the great and the small.
(the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them... Rev 20:13)
Entry into His Body requires that we be baptized with holy spirit (the anointing of holy spirit). If we have not yet received holy spirit (so as to be anointed) then we are yet disciples of Christ (if indeed it is Him we are following). Just as the apostles were disciples but not yet anointed (until He breathed holy spirit upon them).
If we are in Him we are made holy BY Him.
But it is not 'diligently searching the scriptures' that brings one to Christ.
No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
Then it is Christ who teaches and leads us into all truth.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Don't get caught up on the 'gender' of the title.While that is true, Christ is called the King of kings; not the King of queens.Christ IS the King.
He shares His reign with His Bride (which includes the 144 000 and a number that no one can count). He appoints her as having authority over the nations.
He is the King, He shares His reign with His Bride.
Brides are also women... but the Bride of Christ consists of both men and women. Kings are men, but there are women among those who reign with Christ as kings and priests.
So back up a minute.Only those who have perfected the holiness in their inner man as was modeled by Christ the man when he was here in the flesh. The great multitude (or, great crowd) have not yet perfected holiness after the model of Christ the man. That is why they yet must be led by the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. Revelation 7: 17One more question:
Do not all who are in Christ take part in the first resurrection?
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
You are saying that some who are in Christ (Christians) do not take part in the first resurrection?
They remain dead until after the thousand year reign?
Because there are only two resurrections:
The first resurrection: for those who are in Christ (Christians/anointed ones). Both those who have died before Christ returns and those who are still alive when He returns.
The second resurrection: the resurrection of the dead, for (most of) those who died before Christ and for all those who died after Christ but who were not Christian.
If you are suggesting that some Christians take part in the first resurrection and some Christians take part in the second resurrection, could you present your reasons for thinking this? Because I do not see where my Lord taught this.
Nor did Paul teach that:
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1Corinth 15:23
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1Corinth 15:20
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1Thess 4:15-17
So those who belong to Christ; those who are IN Christ; are resurrected upon His return.
That is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
True... which is why some are given one talent, some five, some ten. We are given more when we spend those talents (or if we do not spend them but instead hide them, then what we have been given may be taken and given to someone else). Depends upon what we do with what we have been given. The one who has one talent should not be concerned with the one who has ten talents or vice versa. But we should each spend what we have been given.God is not showing partiality. He merely gives to us what we are ready and able to receive, and no more until we are ready and able to receive more.
I realize you put this in here as a kind of reassurance for those who might be sad or jealous or resentful of the idea of some receiving something 'more than' them; but this does not affect what is or is not true. So I will just leave this part alone.Does that make the 144,000 better than us if we are one who proves not to mature as fast? The way this wicked world judges things it would. But it doesnt work that way among the humble of God. Whether we mature faster so as to be ready to receive part in the first resurrection or we mature slower and must wait for the second resurrection. God loves us equally and does with us only what he must do in our best interest.
Please note that I asked,I previously said: From the great multitude (or, great crowd) come the princes who rule over the many jurisdictional districts which will exist in the new earth.
You asked:This is seen in the Old Testament by how God organized Israel. That was a prophetic pattern of things to come. Not knowing these prophetic patterns which were established under that Old Law Covenant leaves many to have a Jesus of their own opinion.Where did Christ say that this will happen?
Where did Christ say that this will happen?
I know what verses you are using to support your theology. You listed them. But people support all manner of theologies in that way; and many of them are in conflict.
That being said, that pattern has already been 'fulfilled': the King (Christ) shares His reign with His Bride (who reign with Him as kings and priests).
It may take more time for you to fully appreciate this as it must be learned through our study of the Bible coupled with prayer and a sincere heart desiring to know matter not what it ends up revealing about the accuracy of our past beliefs.
Many people study the bible, coupled with prayer. I cannot speak for the nature of people's hearts. Many people also come up with many conflicting ideas, using this method.
If one wants to know the truth... then should one not come to the One who IS the Truth?
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Sadly though, some people just seem to be unable to accept being found wrong. They seem to prefer to think themselves right more than they desire to find what is right. You dont impress me as one of that type. Your responses seem to scream sincerity and hunger for truth.
It is true that there are people who want to hear only what they WANT to hear; and if what they WANT to hear is not the truth, then they do not want to hear the truth. And so they do not hear the truth.
So how can one know if what one believes is true... or just what one wants to be true... except to test that thing against Christ (the Truth)? Asking HIM to show us what is true.
Christ the firstfruits.Because it wouldnt be realistic. Not everyone matures at the same rate and therefore not all can be firstfruits of the harvest. It is unrealistic to think that the only ones left alive out of the great tribulation were firstfruits. That would mean the entire later harvest died. Anyone who farms a wheat field knows that there is an early harvest of firstfruits and a later harvest of the bulk of the wheat.Why can't the Bride (made of people from every tribe, nation, people and tongue - INCLUDING 12000 from each of the 12 tribes listed in revelation), do this themselves? Appointed by their King (Christ)?
Then, at the first resurrection, those who belong to Him.
Then, at the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), all the dead who were not in Christ - both the great and the small.
(the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them... Rev 20:13)
When you say later harvest are you saying the second resurrection? If so, then please refer to my earlier response in this post on that matter.The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the harvest. The great crowd are a part of the later harvest.
I previously said: Even as the king/priests need to be readied first, the princely controllers of their jurisdictional districts also must be readied shortly thereafter as a beginning of order in the new earth.
You stated:If we are one who perfects that now then we will no doubt be a part of his perfect body as a firstfruits. If not, it isnt like he is throwing us away. He is going to give us the additional help we need. But he is holy and the actual entry into his body requires that we be actually holy.We who belong to Christ are being trained by Christ now; trained in mercy, in love, in truth, in righteousness. So that we will be equipped to reign with Him in His Kingdom, then.
Entry into His Body requires that we be baptized with holy spirit (the anointing of holy spirit). If we have not yet received holy spirit (so as to be anointed) then we are yet disciples of Christ (if indeed it is Him we are following). Just as the apostles were disciples but not yet anointed (until He breathed holy spirit upon them).
If we are in Him we are made holy BY Him.
Not at all. Just asking you questions; in particular asking you where it is that Christ teaches these things.I previously said: Those princes of the great multitude represent those kings who represent Christ doing so only in a princely capacity.
You are getting a little wound up it seems.Where does Christ teach this?
Where among the great multitude is there mention of some of them being princes? Where among the great multitude is there mention of those princes representing the 144 000?
The great multitude are ALL before the throne of God, they are ALL serving God day and night in his temple. And it is 'the Lamb at the center of the throne' who 'will be their shepherd...' (rev 7:15-17)
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
I am relaxed, dear BusB.Relax and keep studying and praying and desiring truth.
But it is not 'diligently searching the scriptures' that brings one to Christ.
No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
Then it is Christ who teaches and leads us into all truth.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Post #120
I don't at all agree with your view that to align ourselves with an incorporated institution would mean that we are casting away our personal responsibility. First of all to be considered is that no one formally becomes a member of Jehovah's Witnesses' organization without extensive and intensive preparation. It's not a go-by-the-seat-of-your-pants type spur-of-the-moment decision to get baptized, such as you will find in other churches. People have to thoroughly agree with what they learn over a matter of months or even years.It is everyones' responsibility to make sure they are honest with themselves and their family and friends. No one should say they agree when they don't. This seems to happen a lot---people saying they agree, but then later on go against the organization and talk bad about it. Why take the vows of obedience to Jehovah's visible organization on Earth and then refute those vows?BusB wrote:I have some Good News!!!onewithhim wrote: I'm sorry, BusB, I don't understand your POV and can't give any more responses because I don't understand.
I wish you a pleasant life.
Being wrong about a particular belief does not condemn us or anyone.
Wrong belief, however, can lead to our doing things which do weigh against our prospect of salvation. It is not the wrong belief which condemns us but what we do because of the belief.
Jehovah allows us wrong belief as a test. By it's discovery we are either shown humble (meek) or haughty (prideful).
Now, that same thing holds true whether we are speaking of an individual or of an organization which governs individuals of similar faith. Whether an individual or an organization governing individuals, we must be humble enough to accept correction.
The problem is that when we have thrown our hopes into an incorporated organization that complicates our willingness to see where we are wrong and make appropriate changes to what we believe. As an individual member believing an incorporated organization to be God's organization, we buck our personal responsibility with the excuse that we are to wait on the organization we trust to make the needed changes and we use that as an excuse to deafen our ears.
Here is the problem: What is an incorporated organization? Can the corporal really be God's? Or, is the corporal tied too tightly to the needs of the flesh to be free so as to be able to be completely God's?
A corporation is a corporal entity. This is why Paul did not highlight the organization of flesh, but instead highlighted the one of the spirit at Hebrews 12:18-24
18 "For YOU have not approached that which can be felt and which has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a tempest,
19 and the blare of a trumpet and the voice of words; on hearing which
voice the people implored that no word should be added to them. 20 For the command was not bearable to them: And if a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.
21 Also, the display was so fearsome that Moses said: I
am fearful and trembling.
22 But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,
23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,
24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the blood of sprinkling, which speaks in a better way than Abels [blood]." (NWT - 1984)
Then after the long-considered vows of participation in the organization, the person is responsible for following Jesus' instructions that are clearly evident in the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.Y.). If he does not, he is disciplined (to various degrees) depending on the offense. This organization helps us to see whatever error we have committed. That's part of the spiritual shepherds' responsibility.
A corporal organization has always been a part of God's ways of doing things. His organization back in Moses' day was the nation of Israel. They were His special people, a chosen race, a holy nation, that they "should declare abroad the excellencies of the One who called you out of darkness..." Then after they rejected God's Son, the Christian congregation was God's "holy nation" (I Peter 2:9,10), His organization on Earth. This is true even today. We just have to be cognizant of just which organization is really Following Christ in every matter.
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