The Muslim Stance

[JoeyKnothead]

Its my understanding of Islam that it wants to 'take over' the world, making Islam the default religion for all. I ask these questions in a sincere effort to seek the truth, and I ask in an honest effort to clear the air.

Please forgive me if I'm in error, and I can't quote the Koran, I'm trying to get some clarification.

1- Does Islam seek to impose its brand of religion on the world?
2- Does Islam allow others to worship as they please, with no restrictions, taxes, or any other impediments?
3- Leave Israel out. Do NOT include it in this thread. Could Islam allow Jewish people to form their own communities? Again, we will NOT discuss Israel What I'm asking is could Islam accept a Jewish community to exist outside of any place that Islam considers holy?

4- I understand how delicate the Israel issue is, and I do NOT want to stir that nest up in this thread. If anyone wishes to discuss Israel start a different thread.

[Wyvern]

hehe, this is not about Quran,and Islam, maybe some other, but anyways, no source is mention, so nothing is taken as authentic and reliable here, Muslims have 1 Quran all over the world. Unlike Bible, which is in many versions and different contradictions.

Sorry but it appears as though there have been at least 14 different versions of the koran so your claim is not correct. Deny it all you want but it does not take away from the fact that it is true.

[TrueReligion]

hehe, this is not about Quran,and Islam, maybe some other, but anyways, no source is mention, so nothing is taken as authentic and reliable here, Muslims have 1 Quran all over the world. Unlike Bible, which is in many versions and different contradictions.

Sorry but it appears as though there have been at least 14 different versions of the koran so your claim is not correct. Deny it all you want but it does not take away from the fact that it is true.

But I never heard ot any other version of Quran, are all those 14 versions in Arabic? can you show the link here please also. as you never should the authentic source till now

[Wyvern]

But I never heard ot any other version of Quran, are all those 14 versions in Arabic? can you show the link here please also. as you never should the authentic source till now

Just because you have not heard of it does not mean that it does not exist. Yes all fourteen versions are in arabic, I am not talking about different translations otherwise it would be over a hundred.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/koran.htm

Mind you I am not saying nor is the article saying that the differences in the various versions are major but it does disprove this claim all the same.

Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt.

[TrueReligion]

But I never heard ot any other version of Quran, are all those 14 versions in Arabic? can you show the link here please also. as you never should the authentic source till now

Just because you have not heard of it does not mean that it does not exist. Yes all fourteen versions are in arabic, I am not talking about different translations otherwise it would be over a hundred.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/koran.htm

Now here you made a very big mistake Wyvern, you claim that there are 14 different versions of Quran.
When you call version, it means something additional, changed, removed etc etc from 1 book/ to another.

But whats shown in link, and which every1 knows, is about the variation in writing, and copying, without changing the actual meaning.

From your source -> No question regarding the ORIGINAL wording was involved, but rather the many variations arose due to writing and copying the texts.

So, there is no question to be raised, that Quran has different version, infact its also proven from your source that Quran has only 1 version.

Mind you I am not saying nor is the article saying that the differences in the various versions are major but it does disprove this claim all the same.

Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt.

Yes, this is true, not a single word or dot has been changed, if you know about arabic, there are different dialogues used, depending on the arab country, but the meaning remain same.
And what Uthman did, he instructed to follow 1 dialogue only, and 1 text only, rather than multiple texts, because people used footnotes also for their understanding.
So I dont think there is any problem in this, as if this was not done at that time, many questions would have been raised about authenticity of Quran.

[micatala]

But I never heard ot any other version of Quran, are all those 14 versions in Arabic? can you show the link here please also. as you never should the authentic source till now

Just because you have not heard of it does not mean that it does not exist. Yes all fourteen versions are in arabic, I am not talking about different translations otherwise it would be over a hundred.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/koran.htm

Now here you made a very big mistake Wyvern, you claim that there are 14 different versions of Quran.
When you call version, it means something additional, changed, removed etc etc from 1 book/ to another.

But whats shown in link, and which every1 knows, is about the variation in writing, and copying, without changing the actual meaning.

From your source -> No question regarding the ORIGINAL wording was involved, but rather the many variations arose due to writing and copying the texts.

So, there is no question to be raised, that Quran has different version, infact its also proven from your source that Quran has only 1 version.

Mind you I am not saying nor is the article saying that the differences in the various versions are major but it does disprove this claim all the same.

Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt.

Yes, this is true, not a single word or dot has been changed, if you know about arabic, there are different dialogues used, depending on the arab country, but the meaning remain same.
And what Uthman did, he instructed to follow 1 dialogue only, and 1 text only, rather than multiple texts, because people used footnotes also for their understanding.
So I dont think there is any problem in this, as if this was not done at that time, many questions would have been raised about authenticity of Quran.

This is what is called equivocating. You first said there were no changes. Now you are saying the changes are minor or insignificant. You explain these as copying problems or "dialogue" (Perhap you mean dialect?) problems, which in fact was what Wyvern claimed in the first place. So, you are more or less agreeing with Wyvern's previous statement that you denied in saying that there are problems with the copying, even if there are not problems with the originals.

Furthermore, your arguments are exactly what Christian apologists would say about the Bible, and they would have about as much justification for doing so as you do. Errors or variations in our Biblical manuscripts, even in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, did occur and some of these are undoubtedly due to errors in copying. Hebrew, like Arabic, was often written without the vowels leading to ambiguity in some cases.

[TrueReligion]

This is what is called equivocating. You first said there were no changes. Now you are saying the changes are minor or insignificant. You explain these as copying problems or "dialogue" (Perhap you mean dialect?) problems, which in fact was what Wyvern claimed in the first place. So, you are more or less agreeing with Wyvern's previous statement that you denied in saying that there are problems with the copying, even if there are not problems with the originals.

You are mixing Quran and Bible here my friend, I said that there are no changes, and I'am firm to what I said, and this also is shown here. if you say that people made errors while writing Quran, than its not correct, as it was verified same time by Muhammad (pbuh).
What reference is given here,is just that different culture, use slight different way to write arabic, but text, and meaning remain same. So there is no different in anyway, and this thing was also resolved by Uthman (pbuh), .
Now what Wyvern is saying, is that the versions are different from each other, which is wrong and against to what I;am saying.

Furthermore, your arguments are exactly what Christian apologists would say about the Bible, and they would have about as much justification for doing so as you do. Errors or variations in our Biblical manuscripts, even in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew, did occur and some of these are undoubtedly due to errors in copying. Hebrew, like Arabic, was often written without the vowels leading to ambiguity in some cases.

Now for Bible, even in the Hebrews, there are errors, and same in Greek, You know well that OT is writen in Hebrews, and NT in Greek, both are having errors, which can;t be taken as copyist errors. Also Samaritan Bible (Original 1) is also having errors as well. I showed that already (Period from Adam to Noah) is described different in all these 3 Bibles.
But in Quran, you wont find anything like this. Hope now its clear my point to you as well as to others.

[Wyvern]

Now here you made a very big mistake Wyvern, you claim that there are 14 different versions of Quran.
When you call version, it means something additional, changed, removed etc etc from 1 book/ to another.

But whats shown in link, and which every1 knows, is about the variation in writing, and copying, without changing the actual meaning.

From your source -> No question regarding the ORIGINAL wording was involved, but rather the many variations arose due to writing and copying the texts.

So, there is no question to be raised, that Quran has different version, infact its also proven from your source that Quran has only 1 version.

You forget that I am showing your claim,

TrueReligion wrote:
Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt.

To not be true, you trying to move the goalposts does not impress me.

Yes, this is true, not a single word or dot has been changed, if you know about arabic, there are different dialogues used, depending on the arab country, but the meaning remain same.

You can't say nothing has been changed not even a dot and then go on to say that some things have been changed.

[Wyvern]

This is what is called equivocating. You first said there were no changes. Now you are saying the changes are minor or insignificant. You explain these as copying problems or "dialogue" (Perhap you mean dialect?) problems, which in fact was what Wyvern claimed in the first place. So, you are more or less agreeing with Wyvern's previous statement that you denied in saying that there are problems with the copying, even if there are not problems with the originals.

You are mixing Quran and Bible here my friend, I said that there are no changes, and I'am firm to what I said, and this also is shown here. if you say that people made errors while writing Quran, than its not correct, as it was verified same time by Muhammad (pbuh).
What reference is given here,is just that different culture, use slight different way to write arabic, but text, and meaning remain same. So there is no different in anyway, and this thing was also resolved by Uthman (pbuh), .
Now what Wyvern is saying, is that the versions are different from each other, which is wrong and against to what I;am saying.[/quote]
You really should stop trying to presume you know what I am talking about, you aren't very good at it. Here is what you have said.

TrueReligion wrote:
Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt.

and now you say.

What reference is given here,is just that different culture, use slight different way to write arabic,

Which means at the very least a dot has been changed and disproves your claim.

[van]

TrueReligion:
"Unlike Bible, Quran is saved tillnow, not a word or dot has been changed since the time it was revealed, this is Miracle, which al the historians and scholars, muslims and non-muslims agreed without any doubt."

Actually there was an addition of dots [as in diacritical points] that needed to be added to the original Quran.

The big question were they added correctly?

[van]

How did we get so off topic?

One way to take over is to rid a country of all religions but the cult of Islam.

http://www.aina.org/news/20100113130010.htm

Egypt (AINA) -- Egyptian State Security has intensified its intimidation of the Coptic Church and Christians in Nag Hammadi, and neighboring Bahgoura, by carrying out random arrests of Christian youth. The campaign against Christians started on Friday January 7, 2010 and is continuing; multiple members of families have been arrested without warrants. Most arrests are being carried at dawn. More than one hundred Christian youth have been arrested without charge.

Arrests of Copts after every sedition is the usual scenario as a pressure card in the hands of State Security to force the church and Copts to accept "reconciliation", in which Coptic victims give up all criminal and civil charges against the perpetrators. Because of the reaction in Egypt and worldwide to the shootings and the role of the State Security, Bishop Kyrollos was asked issue statements downplaying the negligence of State Security. It is believed the arrests of the Coptic youth is a pressure tactic to force him to recant his accusations.

Anwar Samuel, a head teacher from Nag Hammadi, told Freecopts that State Security came to their home at four o'clock in the morning, looking for his nephew Mohareb, who happened to be in Kuwait. "Instead they arrested my three other nephews, Fadi, Tanios and Wael Milad Samuel, and took them away in their pajamas." He said they have been subjected to electric shocks.

Coptic News Bulletin contacted several families who confirmed that males as young as 16 were taken away by the police. In an aired interviews, affected families told how the Police tricked their sons into going with them, by telling them that Bishop Kyrollos wanted them to do so for their safety.

Habib Tanios was arrested on charges of firing on people who burnt his home in Bahgoura, although he has no rifle.

Families of the arrested Copts congregated all day near police station waiting for news

According to sources close to Freecopts, strict state security instructions were issued to the clergy in the parish of Nag Hamadi, to suppress any move by the Copts affected by the events and the families of those killed, to demonstrate or protest, accompanied by explicit threats that police will be using live ammunition.

After the Nag Hammadi shooting on January 6, in which 8 Copts were killed and 15 injured as they came out of Coptic Christmas Eve mass (AINA 1-7-2010, 1-10-2010). Bishop Kyrollos of Nag Hammadi Diocese criticized the lack of police protection of the church, which is usual during such events. He held State Security responsible especially that he had received death threats, and was the intended target of the shootings.

Conflict between State Security and Bishop Kyrollos arose due to his insistence on compensation for the Copts of Farshout who lost property and businesses caused by Muslim mob violence against them end November 2009 (AINA 11-22-2009, 11-23-2009, 11-29-2009). None of the state officials attended the celebrations at Church which many took as a sign of their knowledge of the forthcoming shootings.