What type of design is this?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:38 pm

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

brunumb · Post by **brunumb** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:46 pm

[Replying to post 119 by ttruscott]

What if you are faced with the red pill, blue pill choice with no proof, just a tale of a great awakening on one side and ordinary unaware happiness on the other...IF there is no reason to believe in either but you must choose....well, you choose the most attractive to you, right?

That is not remotely like simply choosing to believe that something is true.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 am

brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 119 by ttruscott]

What if you are faced with the red pill, blue pill choice with no proof, just a tale of a great awakening on one side and ordinary unaware happiness on the other...IF there is no reason to believe in either but you must choose....well, you choose the most attractive to you, right?
That is not remotely like simply choosing to believe that something is true.

Never claimed it was, never considered it was, but it is what I think happened...

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:28 am

ttruscott wrote: What if you are faced with the red pill, blue pill choice with no proof, just a tale of a great awakening on one side and ordinary unaware happiness on the other...IF there is no reason to believe in either but you must choose....well, you choose the most attractive to you, right?

Right, I would choose the red pill because that's my favorite color and hence more attractive. The tales of great awakening and ordinary unaware happiness is entirely irrelevant without a reason to believe in either.

Your analogy fails because in the movie, Neo has reasons to believe Morpheus is telling the truth.

And let's not argue the analogy but the Christian claim we were given such a choice with no proof but a lot of influencing but ignorable warnings and promises, ok?

What do you mean influencing? You just said there is no reason to believe them, why would claims for which there are no reason to believe in, influence you?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:17 pm

1213 wrote:
If it cant really destroy soul, it is not big problem.

So if someone was suffering intense agony both mentally and physically. You'd be ok with that because at least the soul won't be harmed?

I choose to believe

.

How in any way can that be genuine belief? That's like saying fake it until you make it. I'm just gonna pretend to believe even though I don't.

I very much doubt you chose to believe in Jesus. I'm betting someone convinced you he was real, that the bible was true and that you needed to repent. You then chose to act on those beliefs.

That's where the choice comes in when we act on beliefs.

eg Believing that I need to repent before Christ. (no choice involved).
Actually repenting before Christ (choice involved.)

I choose to believe the Bible, because it has shown great wisdom and knowledge that I think humans would not have had without God.

Did you choose to believe it showed great wisdom and knowledge or did it convince you it did?

Then did you choose to believe Jesus was real and existed or did the bible convince you of that?

I think what you chose was to actually ACT on those beliefs. You didn't chose them.

I dont choose to believe without good reason.

In other words you must first be convinced its true before you can believe. So once again no choice is involved. By being convinced its true due to good reasoning and evidence, you had no choice but to believe. It was an outcome forced upon you by reason and evidence.

I dont choose to believe things that I dont want to believe.

I don't believe things simply because I want to believe them.

I really want to believe there is a loving god out there who cares about me and wants the best for me. However just wanting to believe it doesn't mean I can twist my own arm behind my back and force myself to believe it. I first must be CONVINCED to believe it.

You know I'd also love to believe that there are other worlds out there that you can reach by going into closets. I wish there were magical chocolate factories run by Oompa Loompas. I'd love to believe all that, but I can't just force myself to believe. I can't choose to believe it without decent evidence.

My mind is not that fickle that I can simply change my mind like my underwear just because I want to.

I don't want to believe nonsense. I want to believe the truth. What I want to believe doesn't even come into it.

Some of us actually value truth. We want to know its true before we believe it. Why would you want to choose to believe something if it might be false?

Do you care about the truth of what you believe? If so how can you simply just choose to believe?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:39 pm

ttruscott wrote:
What if you are faced with the red pill, blue pill choice with no proof, just a tale of a great awakening on one side and ordinary unaware happiness on the other...IF there is no reason to believe in either but you must choose....well, you choose the most attractive to you, right?

The pills are there in front of us. Tangible right? We can see them. We already believe that there are two pills. There is no need to choose to believe in the pills. The thing is we first have to be convinced that these are the only two available pill s and that we have to take them.

Belief in the pills and what they are is not the choice. The choice comes when we take a pill.

Likewise when it comes to God, the choice is not whether we believe in God or not. The choice is whether we choose to follow God or not.