There is Direct Evidence of Gen 1, and none for the Big Bang & Human Evolution.

[RBD]

Normally it's us believers in creation of the universe and man by God, that have to answer to unbelievers. But what about the believers in a universe and man made without God. Shouldn't they also have to answer to us unbelievers? Yes, of course, especially since Gen 1 is stated as fact, while the Big Bang and human evolution are not stated as fact, but only theory.

That fact alone alone proves any universe and man made without God, is not a factual argument. Where no fact is claimed, there is no fact to be argued. Only where fact is claimed, can there be any argument of fact.

In the factual argument of Gen 1, there is daily direct evidence of God's creating all the stars set apart from one another, God creating men and women in His own image: The universe of stars are self-evidently set apart from one another, and are never in the same place at any time. And, all men and women are self-evidently set apart from all animals, and are never the same creature at any time.

In the theoretical argument of the Big Bang and human evolution, there is no direct evidence of all the stars ever being in the same place at their beginning, nor of any man or woman ever being a male or female ape from our beginning. There is no evidence of a Big Bang starting place, nor of an ape-man or woman.

Gen 1 states as fact, that in their beginning God creates all the stars, as lights of an expansive universe turned on all at the same time. This is daily seen in the universe. While, the Big Bang is stated as a theory alone, that all the stars began as an explosion of light from one place. This was never seen nor proven by direct evidence of the event.

Gen 1 also states as fact, that in our own beginning God creates all men and women in His own image, as persons uniquely different from all animals. While the human evolution theory, states that all persons began as a birth of man from ape. That was never seen nor proven by direct evidence of the event.

There's more in-depth clarification to follow, if anyone wants to take a look. But, the argument is as self-explanatory, as it is self-evident. (Unless of course anyone can show any error in the argument, whether with the explanation and/or the facts and theories as stated...)

[RBD]

Afterall, I would never go to an unbeliever to help me believe the Bible. No help is better than bad help...

No surprise as cults don't allow such things (allowing the mixing with those not in the cult). Any help from anyone outside of the cult will be viewed as bad help, thus protecting the cult beliefs.

False analogy. Getting help from non-believers in translating, gathering facts, and even interpreting a Book, that they don't believe is true, is not the same as getting help from them in believing the Book.

Personal bias skews every argument into some different shape, especially if the intent is to make it look worse than it is.

These words of mine remain unadressed:
"According to religious promotional material that we call the Bible, some believers of this religious promotional material believe that Homo Sapiens Sapiens were a special creation just 6,000 years ago. Other believers of this religious promotional material do not believe this claim and accept evolution as being the best explanation."

Yes you have been answered. And I'll only answer once more: I don't care what readers of the Bible want to believe, or not, about the Book. I only believe what the Book says.

The Bible never speaks of Homo anything, nor Sapiens, nor Sapiens Sapiens. The Bible does not acknowledge the naming of man as animals, by 'humans are animals' ideologues. And so, like the Bible, I only refer to human beings as man, woman, persons, and people. Not by names for animals.

Therefore, I avoid the indoctrination tool of naming man an animal, in order to lure the simple into accepting humans are animals. Afterall, if humans have 'scientific' animal names, then humans must be animals, right? I mean, it's science, right?

2 Timothy{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.

Ideologues corrupt science, so that science itself can become suspect. Fortunately for me, I know the difference between science and ideology, so that I keep the science, and only throw out the foul ideological bath water.

Rev{3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

More cult think. Don't even think about questioning the beliefs we reinforce in you as that would be worse then completely disregarding them!
Just the idea of questioning authority is worse then a total rejection of it. Obviously, this is in place to control the members.

You do you though, just don't harm your fellow humans in the process.

Which includes the humans calling themselves animals. It's only because we are all humans, and not animals, that I allow for a fair trial with those that act worse than animals. Rabid dogs, snakes, and man-eating beasts I shoot out of hand. I'll continue to do so, even if the latest 'humans are animals' movement makes animals legal 'persons'. That's when your 'humans are animals' leaders will criminally prosecute humans, that both reject being animals, as well as refuse to acknowledge animals are persons too.

In fact, it's the nonreligious ideologues, that are most common in human history, and the most destructive. Especially the modern 'humans are animals' sort. Their members include authors of the Bolshevik revolution, China's First and Second Mao revolutions, and the Khmer Rouge genocide. In the otherwise democratic states, your members corrupt education, science, and gvt for ideological control.

The 'humans are animals' ideology itself, is the ideological corruption of evolutionary biology.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #119]

All the 'almost' and near-miss data in the world, will never make indoctrinal ideology into proven science.

Throwing the word "ideology" at scientific data will never make the data less scientific.

[Difflugia]

• Our cells have a defined nucleus, mitochondria, and membrane-bound organelles: Domain Eukaryota.
• Our cells lack a cell wall, we're multicelluar, and heterotrophic: Kingdom Animalia
• As embryos, we have a notochord and pharyngeal arches: Phylum Chordata
• We're wam-blooded, have hair and mammary glands: Class Mammalia
• We have large brains relative to body weight, grasping fingers, and flat fingernails: Order Primates
• We have even larger brains than other primates, lack tails, and show complex social behavior: Family Hominidae
• We have even larger brains than other great apes, have curved spines, arched feet, and walk upright: Genus Homo
• We're the only extant species of Homo, sapiens, subspecies sapiens.

Nothing there is assumed.

Nothing there proves human beings are animals, mammals, nor primates.

You assert this, but it's just false. If it were true, you'd be able to define a set of traits that identify animal cells in general, but that somehow doesn't include human beings. You could simply exclude humans by definition, but that would be like defining "plant" to exclude maple trees.

It only proves that the 'humans are animals' ideologues give animal names to human beings, after ideologically claiming humans are animals.

While you're trying to come up with features of human cells that distinguish is from animals, you might also think a bit about what "ideologue" means and how it applies to the discussion you and I are having.

Neither the claim nor the naming proves anything other than the illusion of making ideology appear 'scientific'.

If you show me an animal cell, a plant cell, a fungus cell, a protist, and a bacterium under a microscope, I can tell you which is which. If your claim is true, you should be able to give me a checklist that allows me to distinguish a human cell from the animal cells.

It's no more valid than giving old primate bones, the name of 'man' to identify them.

That's going the wrong way. Not all primates are "man." All "man" bones are primate bones, though.

Giving humans animal nomenclature and naming primate skeletal remains Cheddar 'Man', does not make the humans animals,

You're right. It's the humans having animal characteristics from the macro all the way down to the micro level that makes humans animals.

nor primates of Cheddar men.

If Cheddar men are men, then they're primates as a matter of course. Not all primates are human, but all humans are primates.

Ideology is not scientific proof, but only ideological indoctrination.

That's why scientists leave ideology and indoctrination to churches.

A primate's near similarity to man, does not make a primate a man.

You're right. That's backwards. Not all primates are men. All men are primates, however.

No more than making a planet a moon, which both have similar features of spherical shapes, that shine light, and have gravitational pull.

A moon orbits a planet. That's the definitional difference.

And giving a planet a moon name like Gaia Lunaris, doesn't make the planet a moon.

Right. Because it doesn't orbit another planet, which is what would make it a moon.

Ideologues attempting to combine such nomenclature between humans and animals, simply because of physical similarities,

As opposed to what? Aren't the similarities between fish, frogs, and raccoons physical?

is as unscientifically childish as saying the moon is also a terrestrial body, because it's similar to the earth in shape, shine, and rotation.

Most children know better than that, at least until the church gets hold of them.

Talking about human primates is as unscientific and meaningless as that of terrestrial moons.

So you assert. but I'm pretty sure you're terribly wrong. If you're right, you should be able to find something scientific that explains why humans aren't primates.

It doesn't make one the other, except in the unbiblical and unscientific minds of ideological proselytes.

You seem to have problems with both the Bible and science, so I hope you'll forgive me if I don't trust your opinion on either one.

Cladistic and phylogenetic analyses confirm the pattern, not only between humans and primates, but between all organisms, living and extinct.

The common nature of mortality on earth is more science, that catches up to Biblical truth:

Is that supposed to be a response?

Isa 40:6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

So Isaiah apparently didn't know the difference between animals and plants, either.

The Bible confirms that all flesh on earth is naturally the same as grass. All flesh is grass, but all men are not grass.

Genesis 2:22 says that humans are made of flesh, though. What's your argument again?

Other than the Biblical biology of the common nature of all flesh on earth, all other similarities between men and apes are only near misses at best, like stars and moons. There is no moon star nor human primate.

Humans are totally primates.

And yet, there is the one biological data, that is not given by 'humans are animals' ideologues, which permanently separates all humans from the animals: The blood.

Not all animals have blood, but anything with blood is an animal.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Genesis 9:4-5 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it: and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, will I require the life of man.

What was your argument again?

All men are created with the same one blood of all mankind, and is distinctly unique to men and women alone. Biology shows that the blood of people is not the blood of any animal.

Then you should be able to find some sort of biology text that supports your claim.

And no amount of physical similarities in color, shape, and liquidity can make man's blood animal blood. Humans can never be animals, because we cannot ever have and live by the same blood.

In addition to spiritual intelligence, the fact that there can be no blood transfusions between man and beast, proves that humans cannot physically be animals. The demand for skeletal remains, that could prove primates become humans, must also include proof that any animal blood becomes blood of men and women. The former is not yet found, and the latter is biologically impossible.

Added to the common sense evidence of man's separation from animals by spiritual intelligence, is the confirmed Bible science and astronomy that proves both spiritually and physically, humans cannot ever be animals. No more than planets can be moons. All nations of men and animals that dwell on the face of the earth, cannot have the same spiritual intelligence nor be made of one blood.

Which also includes human vs animal sperm:

Jer 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

As with the blood, so with the seed: that of man is not and can never be that of beast. Nor can one fertilize the other. It is biologically impossible for and flesh and blood creature to be the same, when the blood and sperm cannot be the same. And no amount of 98% near misses of communication, habituation, DNA, genomes, and chromosomes, can ever cross the great spiritual and physical divide between man and beast on earth.

All such 'almost the same' efforts to scientifically support the ideology of 'humans are animals', always end the same way: So close yet so far away, so that spiritually and physically neither is, nor can ever be the other.

That took a super-weird turn, even for this site.

[Clownboat]

False analogy.

But an accurate observation! Any help from anyone outside of the cult will be viewed as bad help, thus protecting the cult beliefs.

Yes you have been answered. And I'll only answer once more: I don't care what readers of the Bible want to believe, or not, about the Book. I only believe what the Book says.

I know! This book has you believing that humans are a special creation and because of that claim, humans are not animals. It's not possible for me to care less about religious beliefs you happen to hold. Your religious beliefs don't affect our reality, therefore they are meaningless, but you sure are proud of them (gentle pat on the head).

The Bible never speaks of Homo anything, nor Sapiens, nor Sapiens Sapiens.

Who cares what the Bible says on the matter? It is just religious promotional material for one of many religions that some humans have invented over time. This book holds emotional sway over you, but is meaningless to the rest of the world best I can tell.

The Bible does not acknowledge the naming of man as animals,

Who cares! The Bible is not an authority, it is just religious promotional material and is certainly not a science book.

And so, like the Bible, I only refer to human beings as man, woman, persons, and people. Not by names for animals.

It has not been a secret as to what is driving you. That the Bible is what drives your thinking is not respected nor is it taken seriously here.

Therefore, I avoid the indoctrination tool of naming man an animal

You just told us the source that indoctrinates you and then pretend that naming man an animal is indoctrination. You're too much!

Afterall, if humans have 'scientific' animal names, then humans must be animals, right? I mean, it's science, right?

No and you should be embarrassed because words have meanings!
an·i·mal
/ˈanəm(ə)l/
noun
a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.

This is why humans are animals. The only indoctrination going on is in the religious world you belong to.

Fortunately for me, I know the difference between science and ideology,

Yet the meaning of 'animal' escapes you!?! I don't trust that you in fact know this difference, sorry.

so that I keep the science,

It has been demonstrated here that you keep your specific religious beliefs. Science be damned.

Which includes the humans calling themselves animals.

Let me demonstrate just how silly you are being.
Which includes the humans calling themselves a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. You know, what an animal has been defined to be.

Your claim is that humans are not living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. Your claim is silly and is made for purely religious reasons.

It's only because we are all humans, and not animals,

We are, you are just at war with the English language, for religious reasons.

I'll continue to do so, even if the latest 'humans are animals' movement makes animals legal 'persons'.

I'm tired of trying to educate you. Do some work yourself and look up the definition of these words that you obviously don't understand.

I'll get you started:
per·son
/ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.

That's when your 'humans are animals' leaders

Science is not like religion. There are no leaders, just scientists trying to prove other scientists wrong for the most part.

refuse to acknowledge animals are persons too.

Animals are not human beings. I would correct your thinking for you if I could.

The 'humans are animals' ideology itself, is the ideological corruption of evolutionary biology.

Once again, just to demonstrate how silly and ridiculous you are being:
The 'humans are a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli' ideology itself, is the ideological corruption of evolutionary biology.

I know, right!

[RBD]

Or, when you say there is no complete difference between humans and primates, you're not including spirit and intelligence?

First of all, humans are primates.
Secondly, what spirits are you wanting me to include? I'm not aware of the existence of these spirits you allude to.

The ideology of the first is by ignorance of the second.

The characteristics for primates that were supplied to you are factual. You call them an ideology because you have a preconceived belief to protect, but the supplied information was in fact, factual.

Conclusions based on things 'Looking alike' is for children, not science. Ideology is based upon appearances only, not the nature of the facts.

I just deny we and primates are the same.

I know, and I also know why you deny that humans are primates.
If humans were to be re-classified, I wouldn't have a problem with that as I don't have any preconceived beliefs to protect.

Which is why look alike ideology is for you.

[RBD]

If you don't want to hear what the Bible exactly says, then say so. I'll move on and not waste my time.

I have read the Bible from cover to cover. I was a born again, tongue talking, street evangelizing missionary to numerous countries Christian for decades. Your words are ridiculously unfounded and just a weak attempt at poisoning the well (something you are doing a lot of).

Impressive. This explains alot.

I'll stick to the specifics of the argument.

There is no evidence, record, nor observed knowledge of any time, when there was no universe of stars, but only hot gas.

Agreed! Who the heck are you even debating and why do you continue to suggest a universe that only contained hot gas?

People that believe in the Big Bang, instead of Gen 1.

[RBD]

Please define what power of spiritual reasoning is. It sounds looney to me.

Your listing of past glories said it all.

with our five-digit hands and feet, our thoughtful eyes, and our lean, muscular physiques. We have lungs, a heart, a brain, a nervous system, and all those other features we share with mammals.
https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human- ... ns-animals

And yet, for all this we are not primates nor animals. Your present gospel notwithstanding.

[RBD]

If you're only going to argue the discovered fact, of a presently expanding universe with newly created stars from gas, then you get not objection. It's not an argument to argue.

If you want to instead add to the argument at hand, that the universe was once all gas without stars yet created, then show the evidence for it.

I doubt you will actually read this, but here it goes:
https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Fa ... g-Bang.pdf

There is no evidence, record, nor observed knowledge of any time, when there was no universe of stars, but only hot gas.

Agreed! Who the heck are you even debating and why do you continue to suggest a universe that only contained hot gas?

You're confused with yourself.

https://www.uwa.edu.au/study/-/media/Fa ... g-Bang.pdf

It's the same as other claims for the Big Bang. About 90% instruction of an expanding universe, which is true. With about 10% gesticulation about a Big Bang, and an admission there is no direct evidence for it. Like human animology, it's an ideology piggy backing other science.

[Clownboat]

The ideology of the first is by ignorance of the second.

You disbelieve that humans are primates. This belief you hold is delusional, because humans are in fact primates as has been shown. All you are doing is pretending to know more than the experts. Your ego is in the way of your learning sadly.
I say all this because humans, being primates does not need to affect your religious beliefs, therefore what remains is that it makes you feel good pretending to know more about this subject than the experts. I can't respect this type of reasoning.

The characteristics for primates that were supplied to you are factual. You call them an ideology because you have a preconceived belief to protect, but the supplied information was in fact, factual.

Conclusions based on things 'Looking alike' is for children, not science.

Wrong and demonstrably so:
Studying animals based on how they look is a crucial aspect of zoology and taxonomy. This field, known as morphology, involves the study of the shape and structure of organisms.

mor·phol·o·gy
/môrˈfäləjē/
noun
the study of the forms of things.
Biology
the branch of biology that deals with the form of living organisms, and with relationships between their structures.

Not for science!

Ideology is based upon appearances only, not the nature of the facts.

Perhaps English isn't your native language?
i·de·ol·o·gy
/ˌidēˈäləjē,ˌīdēˈäləjē/
noun
the science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.

Either way, you have been informed about the shared traits that primates have. It is a fact that primates share these characteristics, so you lose me with this odd claim about the nature of facts. Did you invent 'the nature of fact' as a way to pretend that you are dealing with my claim, without actually dealing with it? Do you deny that primates share these characteristics?

Which is why look alike ideology is for you.

Words have meaning. The above reads like childish slander, but to be honest, I don't think either of us know what 'look alike ideology' is. Did you mean to say that 'morphology' is for me but couldn't come up with that word? If so, that would at least be valid, but would have nothing to do with the fact that humans are primates, so I remain confused.

[Clownboat]

I have read the Bible from cover to cover. I was a born again, tongue talking, street evangelizing missionary to numerous countries Christian for decades. Your words are ridiculously unfounded and just a weak attempt at poisoning the well (something you are doing a lot of).

Impressive. This explains alot.

I'll stick to the specifics of the argument.

I'm glad you have learned how ridiculously unfounded your words were and trust you will cease poisoning the well in place of debating.

People that believe in the Big Bang, instead of Gen 1.

There is evidence for this bang you speak of, therefore belief is not needed, just acceptance of what we have found. However, the information must be understood and that may be hard for some and too much work for others. For anyone not willing to put in the work, humans have invented god concepts to supply them with answers as to how we got here, why were are here and what a happens to us when we die I observe.

Out of all the available god concepts, do you think mankind got one or more of them correct?