This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[Elijah John]

Yes, I am claiming he was speaking of another generation.

That is, the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:34.

One that existed at that time, yet one that is still with us today and will not pass away "until all these things are fulfilled".[/i]

Yes, the generation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.34 is the same one he spoke of in Matthew 16.28. Some standing here, his contemporaries, those of his own generation, not ours, not some far off generation.

That passage actually supports the skeptic's point about Jesus (or Matthew etc) being in error on the matter at hand.

Or else why didn't Jesus say "that generation"? "Generation" as is commonly understood, does not mean "dispensation". 25 years or so is a generation. Thousands of years is a dispensation. Or is the word "dispensation" a theological term unfamiliar to the omnicient Jesus. (do you claim omnicience for Jesus?)

Again, advocates of Bible perfection alter and stretch the meaning of words, changing plain meaning in order to maintain the doctrine of the Bible's supposed perfection.

The Bible doesn't have to be perfect in order for it to be a useful and inspiratonal guide for life and Spirituality.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 125 by polonius.advice]

Have you any RESPONSE to my post 122, including its closing question?

Yes, I am claiming he was speaking of another generation.

That is, the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:34.

One that existed at that time, yet one that is still with us today and will not pass away "until all these things are fulfilled".

That was what he said.

I have in mind what and who he had in mind.

How could there possibly be such a "generation"?


RESPONSE: You, by the plain meaning of words that Jesus said, are highly in error.

1. Some standing here...
2. This generation...
3. What Jesus had in mind is what he said.

Right now I have some people: standing here, this generation... It means the same thing when Jesus "had in mind" and when Jesus said it!


veritas vos liberabit

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 125 by polonius.advice]

Have you any RESPONSE to my post 122, including its closing question?

Yes, I am claiming he was speaking of another generation.

That is, the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:34.

One that existed at that time, yet one that is still with us today and will not pass away "until all these things are fulfilled".

That was what he said.

I have in mind what and who he had in mind.

How could there possibly be such a "generation"?


RESPONSE: You, by the plain meaning of words that Jesus said, are highly in error.

1. Some standing here...
2. This generation...
3. What Jesus had in mind is what he said.

Right now I have some people: standing here, this generation... It means the same thing when Jesus "had in mind" and when Jesus said it!


veritas vos liberabit

Jesus did not say "this generation" was "some standing here".

You and others think "it means the same thing" because both express the same "plain meaning of words that Jesus said".

It doesn't, so you "are highly in error".

That is because it contradicts these words that Jesus said, " this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened", which hasn't taken place yet.

Therefore, "this generation" is still among us, whereas "those standing here" are not.

This thread is not about whether or not Jesus made a false prophecy or was in error.

Rather, it asks two questions about what he said in Matthew 24:34:

What did Jesus mean?

Who is "this generation"?

Note:

These questions do not ask,

Was Jesus right or wrong?

When was "this generation"?

[Checkpoint]

Yes, I am claiming he was speaking of another generation.

That is, the one Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:34.

One that existed at that time, yet one that is still with us today and will not pass away "until all these things are fulfilled".[/i]

Yes, the generation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.34 is the same one he spoke of in Matthew 16.28. Some standing here, his contemporaries, those of his own generation, not ours, not some far off generation.

That passage actually supports the skeptic's point about Jesus (or Matthew etc) being in error on the matter at hand.

This thread, unlike some others, is not intended to be a debate about accuracy or error.

See post 1 for its two debate questions.

What is said in Matthew 16:28 does not match or describe or define who "this generation" is or what Jesus meant when he used it in Matthew 24:34.

Or else why didn't Jesus say "that generation"? "Generation" as is commonly understood, does not mean "dispensation". 25 years or so is a generation. Thousands of years is a dispensation. Or is the word "dispensation" a theological term unfamiliar to the omnicient Jesus. (do you claim omnicience for Jesus?)

Again, advocates of Bible perfection alter and stretch the meaning of words, changing plain meaning in order to maintain the doctrine of the Bible's supposed perfection.

The Bible doesn't have to be perfect in order for it to be a useful and inspiratonal guide for life and Spirituality.

Spirituality?

That's what Jesus had in abundance.

It showed itself in so many ways and so many words.

He was a teacher of spiritual realities, conveying them by his words and actions.

Including the word "generation".

"Generation" has both a natural or earthly meaning[hence "commonly understood"], and a spiritual or heavenly meaning[hence when first encountered seen as being an illegitimate attempt to "alter and stretch the meaning" or as "changing plain meaning"].

Both meanings are found in both Testaments.

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

[Elijah John]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

[Checkpoint]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

Good question.

By firstly coming to understand what makes each what it is, the physical or the spiritual.

Then, having done so, examining his usage of "generation" to determine which of the two is intended.

Each generation comprises those generated by its generator...

[polonius]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

RESPONSE: When Jesus adds the phrase "some of those standing here." That has to be the generation he is talking about. The generation standing here!

The attempt to avoid these obvious statements by saying "in a spiritual way" just isn't credible since Jesus made no such reference.

And elsewhere He told the apostles they wouldn't be able to go though all the towns in Israel before he returned.

[Elijah John]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

Good question.

By firstly coming to understand what makes each what it is, the physical or the spiritual.

Then, having done so, examining his usage of "generation" to determine which of the two is intended.

Each generation comprises those generated by its generator...

Example's of each? And how you know the example(s) cited are one and not the other.

[Checkpoint]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

RESPONSE: When Jesus adds the phrase "some of those standing here." That has to be the generation he is talking about. The generation standing here!


The attempt to avoid these obvious statements by saying "in a spiritual way" just isn't credible since Jesus made no such reference.

And elsewhere He told the apostles they wouldn't be able to go though all the towns in Israel before he returned.

It doesn't have to be anything to do with his use of "this generation", or its meaning.

"Some standing here" refers to some specific individuals, not to a "generation" of any kind.

I did not "attempt to avoid" anything relating to the meaning and identity of "this generation".

[Checkpoint]

He used the spiritual meaning to illustrate and emphasise spiritual truths.

Regarding usage and definition of the word "generation", how does one know when Jesus is using the word as commonly understood, vs. in a "spiritual" way?

Good question.

By firstly coming to understand what makes each what it is, the physical or the spiritual.

Then, having done so, examining his usage of "generation" to determine which of the two is intended.

Each generation comprises those generated by its generator...

Example's of each? And how you know the example(s) cited are one and not the other.

Sure.

Physical generations

Matthew 1:

1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

One spiritual generation

Proverbs 30:

11 There is a generation of those who curse their fathers
and do not bless their mothers.

12 There is a generation of those who are pure in their own eyes
and yet unwashed of their filth.

13 There is a generation"how haughty are their eyes,
and pretentious are their glances"

14 There is a generation whose teeth are swords
and whose jaws are knives,
devouring the oppressed from the earth,
and the needy from among men.

Your turn!