The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). That’s 30% of the commandments! Is God’s ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like “thou shalt not covet” which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is…?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (You’d think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as God’s concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as God’s main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine

G'day Cnorman18.

Would you like a box of tissues as you run off crying ???

Did you convert from being a Methodist minister to Judaism because you thought that it was the "True Religion" ???

Or did you think, nah, I'll leave this Methodist religion behind and go and join a false religion ???

This is a debate forum, if you do not want a debate then why are you posting here ???

Are you for real with your description of, "circumcision, which is medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial" ???

If that is what you truly think, then you are either totally misinformed, or sick in the head. You say, "I also decline to defend the ancient practice of circumcision", and then spew out misinformation as if you are an authority on the subject and everyone should believe what you say without questioning it.

"I explain, I do not promote" - LIE !!!

You just promoted circumcision as "medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial" for a start. No matter how many times you post, "I explain, I do not promote", as some sort of mantra to hypnotise others (or possible convince yourself of your own lie), it is obviously not true.

Here are some of promotional threads about Judaism that you have started .....

What Judaism is
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6842

Passover and the meaning and future of Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7926

What Judaism IS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9610

Ten things you didn't know about Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6740

10 Little-Known Things about Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9609

Sin in Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9921

Yet you continue to absurdly state, "I explain, I do not promote", which is OBVIOUSLY a LIE !!!

You've even posted two of your threads twice in your promotional zeal.

"Everything you believe is a load of crap and I know better"
"You have one, singular, tradition and practice that I find objectionable, therefore your entire religion is primitive barbarism"

Please point out which post you got these quotes from.

Personally, I haven't seen either quote on this or any other thread before. Did you make these up ???

If yes, are they an attempt to play the 'poor me' control drama to gain sympathy and support from others ???

If no, please show the post number that you quoted them from ???

Falsely quoting people is another LIE, if they are not true quotes, please retract them.

"I have no obligation nor intent to prove anything"

Forum rules:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

Another LIE !!!

You are obligated under the "Forum Rules" to "Support your assertions/arguments with evidence", to which you agreed with when you joined the forum.

Do you think that the "Forum Rules" do not apply to you ???

[Fallibleone]

Moderator Warning: I AM ALL I AM, your whole post is uncivil, and makes direct personal attacks in some places. In future, please post challenges in a respectful and civil manner, in line with the ethos of the board. If you feel unable to do so, please take a short break from your keyboard. If you feel that another member has violated a rule, please report the post in which you think this has occurred.

cnorman18 wrote:
Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine

Would you like a box of tissues as you run off crying ???

If that is what you truly think, then you are either totally misinformed, or sick in the head.

...and then spew out misinformation as if you are an authority on the subject and everyone should believe what you say without questioning it.

"I explain, I do not promote" - LIE !!!

Yet you continue to absurdly state, "I explain, I do not promote", which is OBVIOUSLY a LIE !!!

[FinalEnigma]

My confusion RND is in that you speak very negatively of christianity, and are a christian yourself. It is not often that you find a person bashing the religion that they belong to.

is it that the seventh day Adventists know something that the other christian denominations do not, and that, when speaking negatively of Christianity, you mean the majority of Christianity rather than all?

[I AM ALL I AM]

Moderator Warning: I AM ALL I AM, your whole post is uncivil, and makes direct personal attacks in some places. In future, please post challenges in a respectful and civil manner, in line with the ethos of the board. If you feel unable to do so, please take a short break from your keyboard. If you feel that another member has violated a rule, please report the post in which you think this has occurred.

G'day Fallibleone.

Will do.

Thank you for not going overboard with the moderation.

[RND]

My confusion RND is in that you speak very negatively of christianity, and are a christian yourself. It is not often that you find a person bashing the religion that they belong to.

More's the shame I suppose. I think if more "Christians" understood or at least attempted to understand the roots and history of the Christian movement they would embrace, and not reject, much of the Bible.

is it that the seventh day Adventists know something that the other christian denominations do not,

No, not necessarily. While it's true there are many things taught in Adventism that are to me, the closest to the Bible of any Christian denomination, there is still much to do and much to learn.

For example, most Adventist believe that the "ceremonial law" was nailed to the cross in Colossians 2:16-17. Most Christians believe it was the "whole law" that was. And then there are some such as myself that believe the phrase is "idiomatic" of a common practice of nailing the charges of the condemned on the cross. Lots to change.

and that, when speaking negatively of Christianity, you mean the majority of Christianity rather than all?

Yes. Also please keep this in mind, when I express my general displeasure in Christianity it has to do with only certain things, like understanding Christian history or the self-righteousness of Christianity. For the most part I thank God I find many of my Christian brethren wonderful to know and be with.

[McCulloch]

[M]ost Adventist believe that the "ceremonial law" was nailed to the cross in Colossians 2:16-17. Most Christians believe it was the "whole law" that was. And then there are some such as myself that believe the phrase is "idiomatic" of a common practice of nailing the charges of the condemned on the cross. Lots to change.

Is there any biblical support for the idea of dividing the Law into ceremonial and non-ceremonial parts? On what basis do you determine whether a specific Law is in which category?

[RND]

Is there any biblical support for the idea of dividing the Law into ceremonial and non-ceremonial parts?

Of course! The spoken law of God (covenant, written on stone, placed in the Ark) and the Mosaic law (written by Moses, placed in a book, stored on the outside of the Ark) have long been understood to include moral, civil, ceremonial and health laws, statutes and ordinances.

On what basis do you determine whether a specific Law is in which category?

Um, not to be rude but 'common sense' generally helps. For example civil laws such as prescribing restitution for theft would be different than a health law dealing with a physical discharge or leprosy. A moral law such as the prohibition against murder would be different than a ceremonial law dictating when and how a goat, bull or lamb was to be offered.

[cnorman18]

Blah, blah, blah, whine, whine, whine

G'day Cnorman18.

Would you like a box of tissues as you run off crying ???

You might want to dial it back just a notch there, Jim.

Maybe you like to fantasize about being a middle-school bully, but I'm not playing. I'm an adult, myself.

Did you convert from being a Methodist minister to Judaism because you thought that it was the "True Religion" ???

Or did you think, nah, I'll leave this Methodist religion behind and go and join a false religion ???

You alleged that I spoke of Judaism as the "ONE true religion," implying that only Judaism is true while all other religions are false.

That is a falsehood. This is from one of the threads to which you posted links:

....4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith.....

I have spoken many times of my reasons for conversion. The thought that Judaism is true while all other faiths are false was not among them, and if you had troubled to read the threads to which you posted links, you'd have known that.

This is a debate forum, if you do not want a debate then why are you posting here ???

This is a debate and discussion forum.

If you don't think my posts are appropriate, report them and see if you can get the moderators to discipline me. That has even happened, once or twice - though never as emphatically as it has just happened to you.

Are you for real with your description of, "circumcision, which is medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial" ???

If that is what you truly think, then you are either totally misinformed, or sick in the head.

Thank you for demonstrating the difference between personal opinion and personal attack.

You say, "I also decline to defend the ancient practice of circumcision", and then spew out misinformation as if you are an authority on the subject and everyone should believe what you say without questioning it.

Please prove your "as if." I express my opinion, and no more than that.

If you want to see actual examples of your "as if," with some gratuitous patronizing thrown in, take a look at RND's posts. Or your own.

"I explain, I do not promote" - LIE !!!

You just promoted circumcision as "medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial" for a start.

That was not "promotion"; that was a statement of fact.

Want proof? Okay; circumcision is routinely performed on newborns in hospitals all over the US and much of the Western world every single day. In many, if not most, of those hospitals, parental permission is not even asked; it is assumed. If you have evidence that circumcision is medically harmful, you'd better rush it to the AMA by overnight mail. It'll be big news.

There; I have now defended circumcision. Happy?

No matter how many times you post, "I explain, I do not promote", as some sort of mantra to hypnotise others (or possible convince yourself of your own lie), it is obviously not true.

"Obviously not true"? Really?

Let's take a closer look at that allegation and see how well it stands up to the standards you are applying to me:

Here are some of promotional threads about Judaism that you have started .....

As I said, perhaps you should have actually read some of those threads. The first one here is an especially peculiar choice if you're trying to prove that I'm "promoting" Judaism as the One True Religion.

What Judaism is
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6842

From Post 1 on that thread:

In the spirit of providing information, I thought I would here attempt to explain, as I understand it, some of the basic beliefs of Judaism that distinguish it from other faiths. My intention is not to provoke argument or debate, but to provide information only. Nothing here should be construed as an effort to "win" others to my faith or convince them of its truth. Jews don't go there, and I most certainly don't either. JEWS DO NOT PROSELYTIZE, and have not done so since approximately the time of the fall of Rome. I would emphasize most strongly here, then, that nothing I say should be taken as advocating that anyone take up Judaism or even agree with it or any aspect of it. I am here attempting to describe Judaism in positive terms; no more. There is no further significance to my words; no "hidden messages", nor any intent to disparage anyone who does not share, or might even be hostile to, any belief or practice that I describe here. I do not see how I can be any clearer than that.....

Passover and the meaning and future of Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=7926

From Post 1 on that thread:

Passover begins tomorrow night, and Jews all over the world will gather in their homes with friends and family to celebrate our best-known and most widely celebrated holiday. For the first time since I began living as a Jew some eleven or twelve years ago, I will not be attending a Seder to join in the celebration. Rather than ignore the holiday entirely, I thought I would post the weekly Torah commentary that I receive by email from the Jewish Theological Seminary. This one is so remarkably good, and touches on so many points that I and others have brought up on the forum, that I thought it worth sharing.....

What Judaism IS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9610

From post 1 of that thread:

And here's another post on the nature of Judaism, from more than a year ago. I seem to keep having to explain these things to our newer members, and I hope these posts will make some of that unnecessary. To repeat what is said below, the intention here is not to debate whether these ideas are correct, but only to describe and explain what they ARE.

-----

In the spirit of providing information, I thought I would here attempt to explain, as I understand them, some of the basic beliefs of Judaism that distinguish it from other faiths. My intention is not to provoke argument or debate, but to provide information only. Nothing here should be construed as an effort to "win" others to my faith or convince them of its truth.... [etc.]

Ten things you didn't know about Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=6740

From Post 1 of that thread:

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today. Just to get this party started: here are ten things you probably didn't know about Judaism.

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.....

10 Little-Known Things about Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9609

From post 1 on that thread:

I first posted this about a year ago. We have a lot of new members, so here it is again, corrected and edited.

---

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today.... [etc.]

Sin in Judaism
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=9921

From Post 1 on that thread:

The concept of "sin," as it is understood in the Christian faith, has no exact cognate in Judaism. I thought it might be worth examining the differences.....

Yet you continue to absurdly state, "I explain, I do not promote", which is OBVIOUSLY a LIE !!!

You've even posted two of your threads twice in your promotional zeal.

As anyone can see, every thread you have linked to here shows that I am posting "in the spirit of providing information," and not in an effort to proselytize.

By a remarkable coincidence, I have posted 2,009 messages on this forum before this one. I invite you to find one (1), just one, wherein I have (a) declared that Judaism is the one and only true religion, (b) advised or counseled anyone to convert to Judaism, or (c) remarked, even in passing, that everyone, anyone, "more people," or any other formulation you like, ought to become Jewish.

I can show you perhaps a dozen where I have explicitly advised people against it, including this one, posted night before last:

Thanks, Flail. I appreciate those words. I still wouldn't recommend Judaism to anybody, though. Theologically speaking, it's all about freedom of thought and individual responsibility, and that's great - but we've got historical and cultural baggage out the wazoo.

So much for your charge of "promotion." If I were inclined to throw the word around as freely as you, I might even characterize that charge as a "lie."

"Everything you believe is a load of crap and I know better"

"You have one, singular, tradition and practice that I find objectionable, therefore your entire religion is primitive barbarism"

Please point out which post you got these quotes from.

Personally, I haven't seen either quote on this or any other thread before. Did you make these up ???

I think paraphrases are permissible.

A few questions, just for clarity:

(1) Do you not claim to know and understand the teachings of rabbinic Judaism, at least to the extent necessary to declare them largely false?

...Yes.

(2) Do you not claim that your un.erstanding and application of the Bible are truer and more accurate than the teachings of rabbinic Judaism?

Yes, by far.

(3) Do you not contend that rabbinic Judaism consists of the false and impious teachings of men and is therefore a false religion?

....yes, I do believe "that rabbinic Judaism consists of the fal.e and impious teachings of men and is therefore a false religion."

(4) Do you not claim that your understanding of the Bible and the will of God is the one, true, and proper understanding of same and incumbent upon all humans to believe and follow?

Of course.

[Circumcision] is obviously a barbaric ritual and yet you call it the "True Religion and the will of God".

I think my paraphrases are on point and accurate enough.

If yes, are they an attempt to play the 'poor me' control drama to gain sympathy and support from others ???

If no, please show the post number that you quoted them from ???

Falsely quoting people is another LIE, if they are not true quotes, please retract them.

I decline to retract them.

See if you can show where my paraphrases are not essentially correct and accurate.

"I have no obligation nor intent to prove anything"

Forum rules:

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

Another LIE !!!

You are obligated under the "Forum Rules" to "Support your assertions/arguments with evidence", to which you agreed with when you joined the forum.

Do you think that the "Forum Rules" do not apply to you ???

First, "support" does not necessarily mean "prove" any more than "evidence" is necessarily "proof"

Second, my assertions regarding Judaism are always and invariably concerning what its teachings ARE, and not that it is the only true religion or even that it is objectively true at all.

Therefore, my assertions - again, on the subject of what Judaism IS - absolutely ARE supported by logic and evidence. If you'd care to post logic and evidence that proves my assertions wrong - i.e., that Jewish teachings are other than what I have posted - feel free.

One more note; I have previously said that I would no longer participate in this thread. I did not "lie"; that was my intention.

I changed my mind. I did not anticipate a barrage of personal attacks, insults, and falsehoods, and I find it very hard to leave such things unanswered.

I would hope that we understand each other better now. As I said, I regard the allegation that I claim my beliefs are the "one true religion" as a misunderstanding. I have never said any such thing. Ever.

RND has. Period, full stop.

I thought it was clear that that was my meaning. I apologize for the confusion.

As a final bit of unsolicited advice, I would suggest that you might consider switching to decaf.

[McCulloch]

Is there any biblical support for the idea of dividing the Law into ceremonial and non-ceremonial parts?

Of course! The spoken law of God (covenant, written on stone, placed in the Ark) and the Mosaic law (written by Moses, placed in a book, stored on the outside of the Ark) have long been understood to include moral, civil, ceremonial and health laws, statutes and ordinances.

I ask for biblical support and you give me traditional understanding. Of course any interpreter can divide up the various laws into categories; some useful; some not so useful. But you made the assertion that a certain portion of the law (the ceremonial part) was nailed to the cross even though the text in question does not stipulate that and that there is no biblical basis for dividing the law into ceremonial and non-ceremonial parts.

On what basis do you determine whether a specific Law is in which category?

Um, not to be rude but 'common sense' generally helps. For example civil laws such as prescribing restitution for theft would be different than a health law dealing with a physical discharge or leprosy. A moral law such as the prohibition against murder would be different than a ceremonial law dictating when and how a goat, bull or lamb was to be offered.

In matters of law as in matters of religion, common sense does not generally help. Common sense, dictates to many Christians that Sabbath keeping was part of the ceremonial law, yet other Christians differ.

[RND]

ask for biblical support and you give me traditional understanding.

McCulloch, would you like me to quote the entire Torah for you to enhance your understanding? The "Biblical" support is the fact that it is in the Bible. If you are looking for one, concise verse that details this specific thought for your your won't find one.

BTW it is this "traditional understanding" that is beginning to wain within the general church understanding.

Of course any interpreter can divide up the various laws into categories;

Then why'd you ask?

some useful; some not so useful. But you made the assertion that a certain portion of the law (the ceremonial part) was nailed to the cross even though the text in question does not stipulate that and that there is no biblical basis for dividing the law into ceremonial and non-ceremonial parts.

Read it again, I made no such assertion. I said "some people" believe this. I said clearly I don't. Do you want to "read" what I wrote or make your own assumptions about what I wrote?

In matters of law as in matters of religion, common sense does not generally help.

Evidently, but if it did we'd have a lot less crime against humanity.

Common sense, dictates to many Christians that Sabbath keeping was part of the ceremonial law, yet other Christians differ.

And?

Look, McCulloch, if you want to argue your points with me I'm actually not interested. If you are interested in learning where I am coming from I'll be happy to answer your questions, but frankly I'm not interested in debating the obvious with you. Understanding the law of the Bible is actually fairly easy to understand in my view. Just a speeding laws are civil laws and laws against murder are moral laws understanding the laws of the Torah is really no different.

If you want to learn great if you want to fight, debate and argue from a non-scripture viewpoint I'm not interested.