Free Will Can't Be Proved
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Free Will Can't Be Proved
Post #1What is the point in discussing free will within the confines of religious debate? Neither free will nor determinism can be demonstrated as accurate viewpoints, so why bring either up as if it is a point in favor of your position? Doesn't it just become a separate debate that detracts from the discussion?
Post #151
[Replying to post 149 by cnorman19]
Precisely. We can't tell th difference between a world with free will or without. (Just like God, by the way), so the existence of free will (or God) cannot be used to definitively decide a point of debate.
Yes. Thank you.
Precisely. We can't tell th difference between a world with free will or without. (Just like God, by the way), so the existence of free will (or God) cannot be used to definitively decide a point of debate.
Yes. Thank you.
Post #152
Ok lets take the following definition, "a will free of telepathic manipulation by Elvis Presley".Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 148 by instantc]
As I have said many times before: ANY STANDARD, USED DEFINITION. Just like with Stan and his peas, any standard definition of "free will."
Surely you must agree that free will exists as per the above-mentioned definition? Every will is free of telepathic manipulation by Elvis Presley. We know this, as the said person is dead and telepathic manipulation does not exist.
Now we have debunked your nonsensical claim that any kind of free will cannot be proved. What an effort that took.
Now, I notice previously you referred to "any definition", and now you have moved the goal posts by referring to "any standard definition". Can you tell me which definitions count as standard definitions?
Post #153
[Replying to post 152 by instantc]
I said a "standard, used definition." lol!!! No wonder it's so difficult to discuss anything with you, you don't pay attention to a thing said forty times! Lol.
Also, notice the several posts where I have said that I don't care about your positions because of your unreasonable dealings so far.
I said a "standard, used definition." lol!!! No wonder it's so difficult to discuss anything with you, you don't pay attention to a thing said forty times! Lol.
Also, notice the several posts where I have said that I don't care about your positions because of your unreasonable dealings so far.
Post #154
Is that so?Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 152 by instantc]
I said a "standard, used definition." lol!!! No wonder it's so difficult to discuss anything with you, you don't pay attention to a thing said forty times! Lol.
.
Hatuey wrote: I'm speaking about any definition you can find. All of them. At once. NONE of them can be conclusively proved.
...Hatuey wrote: I'm talking about any definition of free will and all of them. Now I can't be more clear than that.
Post #155
[Replying to post 154 by instantc]
Epic fail.
You're adding stuff to the idea of free will, and you didn't "find" that definition anywhere, you just threw crap on the wall. If we allow that definition, then any word in any sentence in this thread could be taken to mean "with Elvis's fingernails."
Like Stan's peas. He means anything normally referred to as peas. Nobody thinks there's a caveat for airplane toilets some drunk mistakenly called a pea one time.
Still you can't prove or disprove it. Lol.
Once again, can you offer any evidence that free will exists that the lunatic cannot offer for his imaginary friend or space alien visits?
Epic fail.
You're adding stuff to the idea of free will, and you didn't "find" that definition anywhere, you just threw crap on the wall. If we allow that definition, then any word in any sentence in this thread could be taken to mean "with Elvis's fingernails."
Like Stan's peas. He means anything normally referred to as peas. Nobody thinks there's a caveat for airplane toilets some drunk mistakenly called a pea one time.
Still you can't prove or disprove it. Lol.
Once again, can you offer any evidence that free will exists that the lunatic cannot offer for his imaginary friend or space alien visits?
Post #156
It's quite clear to everyone what peas are, they are concrete objects that can be pointed at. Free will is not a clear concept at all, your demonstrated inability to explain what it means is evidence of this.Hatuey wrote: Like Stan's peas. He means anything normally referred to as peas. Nobody thinks there's a caveat for airplane toilets some drunk mistakenly called a pea one time.
After putting in all this unrewarding effort trying to have you explain what you mean by the terms you use in your claims, the only conclusion that I can make is that you don't have a coherent definition of free will in mind, which makes your claim utterly pointless to begin with.
Post #157
[Replying to post 156 by instantc]
I invite you to think whatever you want...including that I don't know what free will means and including that you have won something or other.
I've allowed you to use any standard definition of free will for four pages, and the best you can do is pretend some nonsequitur made up crap with Elvis (really?!?) has something to do with what we are discussing about free will.
Free will is a term. You can't prove it exists without using the same "evidence" that a lunatic would for his imaginary friend.
Label me and this conversation however you feel you should, pretend superiority or dominance, and move on. Or say something convincing and meaningful. Or talk some more abou Betty Grable's kneecaps or whatever.
I invite you to think whatever you want...including that I don't know what free will means and including that you have won something or other.
I've allowed you to use any standard definition of free will for four pages, and the best you can do is pretend some nonsequitur made up crap with Elvis (really?!?) has something to do with what we are discussing about free will.
Free will is a term. You can't prove it exists without using the same "evidence" that a lunatic would for his imaginary friend.
Label me and this conversation however you feel you should, pretend superiority or dominance, and move on. Or say something convincing and meaningful. Or talk some more abou Betty Grable's kneecaps or whatever.
Post #158
[Replying to post 157 by Hatuey]
Some standard definitions of free will:
"free and independent choice; voluntary decision"
"the ability to act at one's own discretion"
"the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined"
"the ability to make a choice without coercion"
Of course, some sub-definitions go on to require indetermination.
Some standard definitions of free will:
"free and independent choice; voluntary decision"
"the ability to act at one's own discretion"
"the apparent human ability to make choices that are not externally determined"
"the ability to make a choice without coercion"
Of course, some sub-definitions go on to require indetermination.
Post #159
[Replying to post 158 by Jashwell]
Yep. The thing is that we cannot prove free will except in that it appears we have it. It is useful to claim, in debate, that it APPEARS that we have free will. It is not useful to declare we have free will when it may be that we don't have it but it merely appears that we do.
Yep. The thing is that we cannot prove free will except in that it appears we have it. It is useful to claim, in debate, that it APPEARS that we have free will. It is not useful to declare we have free will when it may be that we don't have it but it merely appears that we do.
Post #160
[Replying to post 159 by Hatuey]
I disagree - the point of the particular selection of quotes I gave is that none of them require determinism, and all of them are plausibly demonstrable (depending on how you define choice). Some of them, if not all, are prima facie apparent - "the ability to act at one's own discretion", "voluntary decision", etc are real.
I disagree - the point of the particular selection of quotes I gave is that none of them require determinism, and all of them are plausibly demonstrable (depending on how you define choice). Some of them, if not all, are prima facie apparent - "the ability to act at one's own discretion", "voluntary decision", etc are real.
