Russia Attacks Ukraine

[Diogenes]

For the first time since 1939 a major European power, Russia, has attacked another country in Europe, Ukraine. We have not seen an analogous situation since Germany attacked Poland setting off World War 2. Surprisingly we have Neville Chamberlain like appeasement/isolationist responses from Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson. Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here's very interesting article with some very relevant history, here's an excerpt:

The claim that Ukraine as a sovereign nation has a right to join NATO today is like saying that Germany, Italy and Japan had the right as sovereign nations to form an Axis in 1936. Founded to defend the West from Soviet aggression after World War II under the judicious "let them kill as many as possible" leadership of Truman, NATO lost its ostensible reason to exist in 1991. It doesnt appear to have ever realized its purpose of mutual defense against outside aggression, but it has often been used by the U.S. as an instrument of aggression against sovereign nations. For 20 years, the war of attrition on Afghanistan was waged under NATO auspices, as was the destruction of Libya, just to name two. It has been noted that if NATOs existence has a purpose in todays world, it can only be to manage the instability that its existence creates.

Five European countries host U.S. nuclear weapons on their own military bases kept ready to bomb Russia under NATO sharing agreements. These are not agreements among the various civilian governments, but between the U.S. military and the militaries of those countries.

Officially, these agreements are secrets kept even from the parliaments of the sharing states. These secrets are poorly kept, but the effect is that these five nations have nuclear bombs without the oversight or consent of their elected governments or their people.

[AgnosticBoy]

It almost disgusts me how the general public are acting like sheep. Everyone is blogging about it, everyone is expressing outrage about Putin on Twitter and so on.

The main purpose of the media should be to keep people informed about news and events. But nowadays, I see the mainstream media doing a lot more 'publicizing' (in the promotional sense) than informing. There's even a Hollywood touch to it in the way they frame their stories; they know how to make things or people popular (or seem that way.. e.g. did this with several political candidates that ended up falling flat), dramatic (to show heroism, suffering, etc.), etc. So not only is there a tendency to select which facts the public gets to hear about, but they also want to push out the facts a certain way to persuade/influence you in one way or another. They may as well interpret the facts for you. I am not surprised that many in the younger populations are getting their news from Twitter and Facebook. That's only a logical progression. News from social media is more popular in that you'll most likely hear what you want as you'll probably find a view for just about anything or you can come up with your own view and develop a following!

Just recently, the mainstream media were giving me the impression that Ukraine had a chance to defeat the Russians - Russian soldiers were giving up, Russia citizens were standing up to Putin, abandoned Russian tanks, etc, all put together to make it seem Russia was on the verge of defeat or that Ukraine stood a chance. But the REALITY is that Ukraine is severely outmatched. Those that are buying into the popular media narrative will likely be in despair when they realize that the story didn't end the way they were led to believe that it would. I felt severely let down in 2004 after I followed this popularized/theatrical narrative of the media when it was used to make John Kerry/John Edwards look good against then president George Bush, and then Bush ended up winning again.

If there's any lesson I've learned from relying on the news media it is that you have to separate fact from narrative. Sometimes the two are consistent and but oftentimes they are not.

[AgnosticBoy]

To add to my last post... We should also keep in mind how mainstream media in totalitarian countries also do not serve to inform but to control. Imagine the news broadcasts in North Korea.

I'm against any media, Western and non-Western, that tries to promote/control.

On a sidenote, Russia seems to be taking a page from our book by creating propaganda against Russian "hate". Look at all of the themes that would appeal to progressive Western values.. dogs, racial diversity, gender, and anti-hate in the video below. The ultimate goal is probably to get people to soften up on Russia overall. I'm wondering how many people will be duped by this, overlooking the facts for its narrative?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Its incessant, just now I read:



and like so many of the claims, there's oddly no footage, like not a single person anywhere in the vicinity had a camera or phone to capture any of this, surely the media would do anything to share such images/footage, yet - nothing.

This is not to accuse anyone of lying, but there are so many reports like this about Russia and oddly little if any footage, the Ukrainians have drones, almost everyone has a cell phone, why no video evidence???

[AgnosticBoy]

CNN is starting to get it... the bias of Western coverage...

'Egregious level': Journalists are being called out for bias reporting on Ukraine

It almost disgusts me how the general public are acting like sheep. Everyone is blogging about it, everyone is expressing outrage about Putin on Twitter and so on.

Celebrities like David Beckham and Sean Penn and all the rest, are leading initiatives and making documentaries and so on.

None of these people has said a word about the child victims of western bombs or bombings carried out by our "allies" or nations in an "alliance" with the West.

It's a good thing that you mentioned was "dislike". I always like to caution people to not let that progress to hate. For one thing hate can cloud judgement; it's certainly not conducive to accepting truth. I know plenty of people that hated Trump, and it was like pulling teeth trying to get them to admit that Trump did some things right. Also, hate doesn't help fix or heal relations with anyone or any group.

#Don't be a hater.

[historia]

Just recently, the mainstream media were giving me the impression that Ukraine had a chance to defeat the Russians - Russian soldiers were giving up, Russia citizens were standing up to Putin, abandoned Russian tanks, etc, all put together to make it seem Russia was on the verge of defeat or that Ukraine stood a chance. But the REALITY is that Ukraine is severely outmatched. Those that are buying into the popular media narrative will likely be in despair when they realize that the story didn't end the way they were led to believe that it would.

What are you thoughts on the situation now that Russia has abandoned its assault on Kyiv and retreated from northern Ukraine?

[AgnosticBoy]

Just recently, the mainstream media were giving me the impression that Ukraine had a chance to defeat the Russians - Russian soldiers were giving up, Russia citizens were standing up to Putin, abandoned Russian tanks, etc, all put together to make it seem Russia was on the verge of defeat or that Ukraine stood a chance. But the REALITY is that Ukraine is severely outmatched. Those that are buying into the popular media narrative will likely be in despair when they realize that the story didn't end the way they were led to believe that it would.

What are you thoughts on the situation now that Russia has abandoned its assault on Kyiv and retreated from northern Ukraine?

My conclusion remains largely the same in that Ukraine has not defeated Russia. If "winning' involves taking back some cities, then sure Ukraine has had some success. But I'm skeptical of any complete or total victory given that Russia is not using it's full arsenal. Also, they are still fighting in Ukraine. Some may say that the Russians retreating from some areas is a sign of victory, but that may just be a tactic to regroup and restrategized their approach. If the latter, then Russia will try to advance again but do it another way. I would say Russia may even pause and try again at a later time but then I see Ukraine is escalating by attacking Russia on their homeland and getting more advanced weapons.

I think some are hoping for a Beirut Lebanon scenario where the Russians lose so many that they'll leave the country completely, but I'm skeptical of that. Ukraine is right on their doorstep, and I think the Russians are big on trying to send a message. So they'll stay and fight. My worry is that this will eventually lead to Russia using weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). And I suspect that once a Nuke is used, the US won't do anything (unless it is the target) militarily because no one will win in a nuclear exchange.

[AgnosticBoy]

To add to my previous post...


REports like these bolsters my point...

That the Ukrainians have not only managed to hold the Russian army at bay but also forced its troops into a humiliating retreat from the north of the country is testament both to their fighting ability and to the Russians poor performance so far, experts say.

Russian forces have now completely withdrawn from the areas around Kyiv and Chernihiv in the north, where their attempt to launch a sweep into the capital was thwarted by fierce Ukrainian resistance, U.S. officials say. Those troops are in the process of being refitted and resupplied, apparently for redeployment to the east, the Pentagon says.

- Washington Post

Ukraine's defense intelligence chief on Friday told CNN that Russian troops are regrouping across the border and plan to advance toward Kharkiv. Officials have urged the evacuation of civilians from the region, as Russian forces shift focus to southern and eastern Ukraine.

- CNN

[JoeyKnothead]

...
For one thing hate can cloud judgement; it's certainly not conducive to accepting truth. I know plenty of people that hated Trump, and it was like pulling teeth trying to get them to admit that Trump did some things right.

I, for one, commend Trump for performing so poorly in the last election, to get run out of office.

All he had to do was let the medical experts handle covid, and his reelection was in the bag. Alas, narcissism don't always equate to sound decision making.

[Rose2020]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Hi
I love your name Diogenes by the way. I am such a Holmes fan.

Reading of impending massive escalation of this war I feel utterly despondent and appalled. Why oh why? I am not clever, not good at debating about it. All I know is my heart cries out for the people caught up in it. Unspeakable evil is happening.

I just pray it will soon be over and God save the innocents, especially the children suffering with their parents.