Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 149 by H.sapiens]


Way off base ? Doctors without borders was born out of the Red Cross, the Red Cross recruits doctors without borders. This has been explained already .


http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/msf-experience

Red Cross Roots
MSF's creation was actually the culmination of a trend initiated ten years earlier by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), a trend that was in itself a response to the work of Red Cross societies. During the early part of the twentieth century, humanitarian emergency aid was provided primarily by the Red Cross movement. But the effectiveness of its actions has been compromised by slow transport facilities and cumbersome administrative and diplomatic formalities.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 148 by H.sapiens]

I've been in those jungles. I worked for USAID for years, in both South East Asia and in Central America. That's not a "Christian" organization and we were helping in really scary places, doing things that would cause you to soil your Christian small clothes, and in all that time I never heard any of my coworkers praying, lots of atheists in those "foxholes."

Then we have this....


https://www.usaid.gov/partnership-opportunities/fbci

Working closely with faith-based and community stakeholders is critical to the success of USAIDs mission. These efforts are coordinated through USAIDs Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (CFBCI).

Working with "faith based " is critical to their success. This shows affiliation with Christians, that is tantamount to their success. Seems like they are right there with them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith-based_foreign_aid

Critics question the mingling of economic, health, or other types of aid with the motivation of religious development groups, nearly all of which are Christian, often seeking conversions and threatening indigenous beliefs and cultural practices. Defenders credit Christian development and missionary groups for reaching people like no other groups can, due to historical networks, such as Africa's churches, and providing top quality services, often in health and education. Some, however, consider faith-based foreign aid to be a modern-day extension of religious colonialism, with morality often dangerously mixed with critical development concerns, especially global health education, prevention and treatment of infectious diseases, economic security and other issues.

Here , your own wiki that you put faith in agrees with me . Note "nearly all of which are Christian ".

My point was already made , but here ii is again , even from your own trusted source.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 135 by Zzyzx]

Correction: Many individuals, corporations, nations, and international organizations (such as UNICEF) sponsor on-site help in dangerous parts of the world

This does not put them at ground zero where we are 100% sure that the Christians are there . So I will ask you , the same as others who had no answer , what group is by their side in these war torn cities hospitals in the middle of a civil war? What other group or religion is with them in the malaria filled jungles ? What other group or individual or religion are with them in the badlands of the ME ?

I do not know of any, or else I would name them.

There has been no specific answer of any individual group , we have the MSF in certain circumstances, but that was grown from a Christian organization. So can we name another besides this group ? That probably is at least 70% Christian anyhow.

Wow, this little tangent sure took off!

At this point Faithful One, it is on you to show you speak the truth. You've been given pages of refutation for your claim that only Christians are putting themselves in the trenches. No matter what secular humanitarian organization is mentioned to you, you've been freely claiming this:

This does not put them at ground zero where we are 100% sure that the Christians are there

Please show that 100% of the time, "Christians" are 'there'. That really shouldn't be difficult to do with a bit of internet research. You've yet to do that.

It makes me wonder if your basis for saying such a thing is the same faith you claim to be the very purpose of Jesus' message of salvation. If you really do have evidence to support your 100% Christians-in-the-trenches is true, that leaves NO room for any other religious based organizations, much less secular based ones, which is a mighty claim indeed. If you just have 'faith' that your claim is true, please say so, as you've already done several pages ago in response to the OP.

Doctors without Borders did NOT grow from a "Christian" group, it grew out of the 1968 Paris student riots: "History" (make a donation as long as you're there). I've "been there" personally, with no Christians in sight (at least amongst the aid workers) so I am personally available to falsify Faithful One's claims.

[Hamsaka]

The local Salvation Army Pastor appeared on a small film clip showing her with a man who had been helped with clean clothes and shower facilities which is fine and then she dropped the bombshell..."We do it because Christ, told us to"

I wanted to ask her..."You mean, you wouldn't think of doing that anyway"?

Making the same point that people do NOT have to have any religious faith to do good works and in some ways its more (can't think of the word?) because they do it for their fellow man without seeking any reward in heaven...Maybe that was the weakness in the Gospels? Why love God first and then each other second and not the other way around?

That word would be 'altruistic'.

Perhaps in our more brutal, barbarian-life days folks needed to be ORDERED to help each other, but I do not see that as a necessary factor. Most people feel a stab of identification with the person holding cardboard signs at street corners, don't they? Beneath the guilt, irritation and the accretions of those sorts of things that put big distance between one's personal plights and those of other persons, there is a kernel of 'that could be me or someone I love'.

Now that our lives (in general) are ever more removed from scrabbling in the dirt for a grain of rice, we have more energy to have real heart. And perhaps this was the intent, originally, of some of the biblical writers who admonished Christ or God as the reason for compassionate treatment of prisoners, sinners, the sick and poor.

But when you yourself are watching your kids' ribs sticking out and you are pregnant for the eleventh time, how much 'room' does a person have to worry about the plight of others?

Those of us living cushy 'modern' lives have an obligation to concern for our less fortunate fellows. I don't need a god to tell me that, and never did, and I'm far from alone.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 163 by H.sapiens]

Doctors without Borders did NOT grow from a "Christian" group, it grew out of the 1968 Paris student riots: "History" (make a donation as long as you're there). I've "been there" personally, with no Christians in sight (at least amongst the aid workers) so I am personally available to falsify Faithful One's claims.

I have shown you source of how and why they came about, you just choose not to accept it . The Red Cross was founded by Christians. The Red Cross is the reason behind doctors with borders motivations for cresting MSF . I have also stated " with the exception of doctors without borders, that are recruited by the Red Cross . I also stated they are independent of any religious or political agendas .

[tam]

.

Even the flood is written about in various other cultures and times. The details are not all the same, and I really don't think that is surprising considering how long ago it was, and the method of recording. But this flood is still spoken of in other cultures.

Of course flood tales are common in many cultures because floods are common in lowlands, river valleys, flood plains, coastal areas. However, that does NOT match the Genesis account of a worldwide flood "to the tops of mountains" wiping out all animal life on Earth save those on the Ark.

Consider this Tam. If a flood killed everyone but Noah and crew, WHO in various cultures knew about and recorded "The Flood"? They were all dead according to the tale.

Really using the argument that Tam is using undermines the bible completely. If it was a worldwide flood there would have been no tales of this flood from other parts of the world, as they would have all been wiped out themselves, so nobody would been around to tell the tale.

If it was a world wide flood then the stories must have come from one specific location spread by the survivors, ie, Noah and his family. Which still does not prove a world wide flood, just that good stories spread around the globe.

If other cultures witnessed the flood and then there were survivors, then the bible tale is completely wrong about Noah and his family being the only survivors. It then means that the flood did not cover the entire world as the bible claims.

This is a good point from both of you.

But actually the point I am making is that many cultures retained the story of a flood... as in it was passed down, carried on. One flood, but the story, the memory of it has been carried on down through the ages from the survivors, and spread about as the people themselves spread about. So that the tale may have become indigenous to various cultures, but it was actually all from the same source.


I apologize if I did not make that clear.

(that is not the point I am making regarding serpents/seraphs/dragons/angels, however.... those are also from various interactions)

Peace to you both!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 163 by H.sapiens]


How about. You name a place that has famine, or plague , disease , lack of sanitation or meds and we will see if Christians are there to help, or organizations affiliated with faith based groups .

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 163 by H.sapiens]

Here , now will you deny this ?!!

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/founding-msf

After the revolt of May '68 burst onto their black and white TV screens, the French public soon saw other, more frightening images. For the first time, television broadcasted scenes of children dying from hunger in remote corners of the world.

In southern Nigeria, the province of Biafra had seceded. This minuscule territory was surrounded by the Nigerian army and the Biafran people were decimated by famine. The French Red Cross issued an appeal for volunteers.

Medics in Emergencies
For a number of years, Max Recamier and Pascal Greletty-Bosviel"volunteer doctors with the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Geneva"had been regularly intervening in armed conflicts.

"Contrary to popular belief, the Red Cross is not a medical organization at all," says Max Recamier. "Pascal and myself were the only two doctors they knew because of our previous mission in Yemen, so they asked us to find some doctors for the ICRC. The first one to volunteer was Bernard Kouchner, who was much younger than I was; he was just finishing his studies and hadn't even finished his thesis yet, but he volunteered to go over there."

A team of six set off on the ICRC mission to Biafra: two doctors"Max Recamier and Bernard Kouchner"as well as two clinicians and two nurses. Being thrown into such a bloody conflict was a real shock for these fledgling doctors, who found themselves having to provide war surgery in hospitals that were regularly targeted by the Nigerian armed forces.

The Red Cross recruited these guys ! They then formed the MSF . Do you ever cede h.sapiens ? The time would be now sir . Unless you are going to counterpoint what I just put in front of you that is . Do,you deny it happened this way ?

They were officially formed in 1971.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 163 by H.sapiens]

Doctors without Borders did NOT grow from a "Christian" group, it grew out of the 1968 Paris student riots: "History" (make a donation as long as you're there). I've "been there" personally, with no Christians in sight (at least amongst the aid workers) so I am personally available to falsify Faithful One's claims.

I have shown you source of how and why they came about, you just choose not to accept it . The Red Cross was founded by Christians. The Red Cross is the reason behind doctors with borders motivations for cresting MSF . I have also stated " with the exception of doctors without borders, that are recruited by the Red Cross . I also stated they are independent of any religious or political agendas .

It is not a question of what I choose to accept, the organization itself writes its own history and disagrees with you. I am not calling you a liar. I am not saying you are wrong. Read their website and then make up your own mind as to if you should recant.

As far as the Red Cross is concerned:

Barton became keenly interested in spiritualism and Christian Science, though she never joined a Christian Science church. She claimed she was not "what the world denominated a church woman." In 1905 she affirmed her Universalist faith in a letter to an Ohio inquirer. "Your belief that I am a Universalist is as correct as your belief in being one yourself, a belief in which all who are privileged to possess it rejoice."

[tam]

Christ is not a religion. Men built a religion around Him. But it is not from Him.

I would actually point out this scripture here:

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Are you saying that this is not what Christ would want? If it is, then even the bible declares that Christianity is a religion. So when a Christian group does charitable acts they're actually practicing the religion that James speaks of here.

Also don't forget that Jesus insisted that we conduct religious rituals like prayer, baptism and communion. So I don't think you can claim that Christ or Christianity is not a religion. It is so full of religious rituals that Jesus and Paul endorsed, it's not funny.

The word translated into religion occurs only 5 times in the entire NT (twice in this passage by James, three times by Paul when he reference his former sect and religion with the Jews). It is not once used by Christ. With the possible exception when Paul speaks about his former religion, the way that James uses it does not carry the same connotation as organized religion that we have today. More in the sense of show your 'religion' (fear and worship of God) by feeding widows and orphans.

Not by following the traditions of men, the rules, the idols/icons, the charms, the empty rituals, the ritualistic clothing or symbols. Not by listening to men or following their dictates. All of those things are things to be SEEN. But we are to walk by faith, not by sight.



Christ on the other hand said that the true worshipers will worship NOT on this 'mountain' or that 'mountain', but in spirit and in truth.

The temple is His body... which he is building. The Church are the people who are part of His Body. (not a building) So that one does not go to church; neither does one leave church, because if one is in Christ one IS the church. Those who belong to Him need no man to teach them, because they learn from Him: the Teacher.


Yes, He did tell us to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood in order to have life in ourselves. He is the Teacher. Teachers teach. Doctors tell us to do things for our own health also, but that does not mean that we are part of some religion if we listen to them.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy