CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word one or its equivalent - alone, only, etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to Jesus is the Christ or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

YHWH is the Son, or YHWH is the Firstborn, or, YHWH is the Messiah (or Christ), or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that Jesus is YHWH (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in three distinct persons):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" " Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 155 by Checkpoint]

To clarify further, I have three questions:

QUOTE: Are you saying the Father is not the true God, only the Son is?

No.

QUOTE: you saying the Father and Son are the one true God and are one person, not two persons?

Yes, if you include the Holy Spirit

QUOTE: is your view on the Holy Spirit...where does he/it fit into your anti-trinitarian position?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and Son.

Let me clarify something. I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is undeniable. What I don't believe is they are three separate persons, with three separate wills, eternally separate, but cooperate as one in unity. Or whatever someones concept might be along these lines.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is this: Elohim, (meaning God, in all that God is, which would include the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) permanently abides in Jesus Christ and can only be found in the One person of Jesus Christ. This is why no one can come to the Father except through Him. It is also why Peter would describe the Holy Spirit that came upon the Prophets of the OT as "the Spirit of Christ", instead of the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of the Father (1 Peter 1:11). It is also why, Jude (the half brother of Jesus) understood Jesus to be the Lord God of Israel that delivered His people out of Egypt (Jude 1:4-5).

I have much more to share, but why overwhelm the topic at this point. These scriptures are enough to at least consider the possibility that God in all that He is, is not separate from His Son or His Spirit, they are in Jesus Christ.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 161 by B Bob]

I have much more to share, but why overwhelm the topic at this point. These scriptures are enough to at least consider the possibility that God in all that He is, is not separate from His Son or His Spirit, they are in Jesus Christ.

You have left the distinct impression that you are advocating a form of modalism, and/or of the Jesus only teaching.

What do you have to say about that?

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 162 by Checkpoint]

No, I emphatically reject that categorization of me. Why try to size me up? Do you want to skip to judging what I know, understand, and believe by and because you know the doctrine I believe in? The tragedy in that is coming to a judgement about me that would all too often be wrong.

Please consider this point because you and I do not yet know what each other knows and understands. I suspect it is unlikely that you have heard the takes I want to share with you. I am only asking to hear me out and consider something that you may not have thought about.

As to what I am, I would say this. I am a guy that believes in God and that God gave us His word (The Bible) for the sole purpose to reveal Himself to us. From the first page to the last, the Bible is all about God revealing Himself by granting the understanding of the mysteries of heaven to those He chooses. Mysteries that He has hidden in His word. I believe if we ask God to reveal Himself to us, He will do it. We only need to be open to it (being open, is probably easier said than done).

While I don't know, I sense both of us believe the Bible is authored by God and inerrant. Am I right? If so, then you know that understanding the mysteries of heaven are granted by God. There is no other way to know them: Matt 13 explains this well. Having said that, it has always bothered me how we could view a Biblical mystery and not be granted the understanding. Everyone that studies scripture comes to the understanding that a mystery in the Bible is something that God reveals. Therefore, it is troubling, if the post Biblical doctrine of the the trinity is true, then why does it remain a mystery.


Her is where I am coming from:

Sometime ago, I began looking at the mystery of the trintiy from a "cold case" file approach. I was already well versed in both the trinitarian and oneness arguments when I began my "cold case" investigation of the scriptures. Both sides present their arguments with solid support of the evidence found in the Scriptures. I credit both sides for excellently presenting their arguments. However, nothing has been solved, right?

Let me also say, I asked God to show me how He, as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is ONE? It matters not to me, that many people have prayed this prayer. It only matters that I believe in God and He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. I expected an answer.

The evidence that is overlooked by both sides of this argument:
I notice both sides have not handled a particular piece of evidence that gives us a clue to "How can The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be ONE?

This is where the cold case file gets hot. The evidence that has not been examined is "us". The clue is Gen 1:26-27, 31, 2:1-3) (Gen 1:31-2:3 we have not yet discussed).

God made us in His image and according to His likeness (Gen 1:26-27). This is a HUGE clue. I have not seen anyone ask and/or answer the obvious and reasonable question: "If God is a trinity of three separate persons, operating as one in unity, in what way or better yet, how are we succinctly made in the image and likeness of the trinity? Can you answer this question by the evidence of how we are made (as one person of mind, body, and spirit)?

This question speaks to the concise evidence of how we are made and how we are not made; Gen 1:26-27.

The written statements in Gen 1:31,2:1-3 present other HUGE clues that have been grossly overlooked. I have looked at them and there is volumes of evidence that paints the concise picture of the creation of man on the sixth day of God's creation.

In my opinion, the first and foremost reason we cannot see the evidence because we forget the omniscient attributes of the author and don't consider how He views events is quite not like how any other of us view them. Let us not let it escape our notice:
Isa 46:9-10 "Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure;"

Vs. 9 is a famous scripture, but verse 10 is the one to chew on, and chew on a lot! (more on this later)

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 163 by B Bob]

Because I think it is important for us to recognize what we do, I want to expound upon what I meant when I said "being open is probably easier said than done".

In my opinion, most people study the Bible to prove what they already believe, instead of studying the Bible to prove what is true, then believing it. This is why it is easier to say or think we're open than it is to practice something that would cause us to admit we were wrong. Especially since, in many case, we've been dogmatically wrong for a long time.

[Talishi]

In my opinion, most people study the Bible to prove what they already believe, instead of studying the Bible to prove what is true, then believing it.

And that's also a flawed methodology. Since truth is the way things are, how about studying things to see how they are and then understanding them, rather than believing what a book says. Because the book says there's a solid dome in the sky to divide the waters above from the waters below, and the sun and moon decorate this dome.

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 165 by Talishi]

Thank you for your comment Talishi. For clarity, what I meant by proving what is true, is searching and examining the scriptures to see what is true as opposed to studying to find scriptures that support what we already believe.

The reason I believe what the Bible says is because I believe, regardless of the writer, its author is God, meaning the words in this book come straight from the mouth of God. It is a supernatural book, alive and exhaling the words of God

I have found what the Bible says (meaning what God says), is how things are. Whether or not we believe it.

[Talishi]

I have found what the Bible says (meaning what God says), is how things are. Whether or not we believe it.

We have already sent probes well past the moon, and have found that, contrary to what God says, the Moon is not fastened to a solid dome, also known as the firmament.

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 167 by Talishi]

Ok, if your point is you don't believe the Bible is true or not authored by God or that there is no God,, with the understanding about my belief, then what is there to debate between us? It seems to me the issue is already settled.

If I misunderstand, pleae explain so i can understand where your coming from.

[Talishi]

Ok, if your point is you don't believe the Bible is true or not authored by God or that there is no God,, with the understanding about my belief, then what is there to debate between us? It seems to me the issue is already settled.

I'm evaluating whether your faith in God is so blind that you reject our finding that Voyager II has traveled 15 light hours from Earth without bumping into the solid dome over the Earth that the Word of God asserts is really out there supporting the Moon and Sun in place.

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 169 by Talishi]

Please quote the scripture you refer to that asserts your claim. The we will begin to found out whether or not I am blind.

At the same time, I suppose I will be able to evaluate how familiar you are with the scriptures by how quickly you reply