Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

.
After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[KenRU]

The point is more about how faith garners strength in Christians and how this makes them the premiere group for volunteer ship in the world , compared to any other group , or religion .

I don't think this logic holds up under scrutiny though. While it is clear that religions can absolutely compel/instill/instigate/propel (choose your word here) people to do a variety of things they may not otherwise do, it doesn't mean that their motives are good or that it is being done for the right reasons. Nor does it mean it is sending the right message.

For example: I argue that any atheist involved in DWB/MSF is more altruistic than a religionist who is there because god wills it or because that he fears for his own soul, or any of the myriad of theistic reasons.

Shouldn't we aspire (as a global community) to help one another just because it is the humane thing to do? Regardless of what a religion says? Regardless of what someone's religion is?

DWB website makes it clear that this is their goal - to help regardless of the doctor's religion. They take an oath that affirms this. I posted a quote showing this and a link to the charter a while back. This message/charter runs counter to your assertion. Even they are trying to separate religion from their reasons for being "in the front line" as you say. To me, that is the right message to send.

All the best

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 122 by Clownboat]

Charity smerity!
I can show you Muslims that are willing to die for their faith. Treating the sick in these 'hell holes' you allude to does not compare to willfully dying for your beliefs.

Your argument is week. If it's not, I assume you must be struggling with becoming a Muslim. Can I guess that you are not and that you don't find this type of evidence convincing unless it is in an attempt to further your preferred religion?

Going by your standard here:
- Some Christians are willing to treat sick and injured in bad areas of the world.
- Some Muslims are willing to blow themselves up for their god.

Which religion is true if we use your standard here?

The Muslims are indigenous , they are helping their own , not the same point.

You are comparing a Christians sacrifice , volunteer-ship to help others to suicide bombers blowing others up ? Innocent people at that ?

Let's be real here ,this is a ridiculous analogy , that goes from compassion to murder.

Both actions are done due to their religious beliefs.
Muslims are willing to blow themselves up for theirs, Christians are just willing to put band aides on people in dangerous neighborhoods.

Who has the greater religious conviction here?
Welcome to the Islamic faith.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 191 by KenRU]

I don't think this logic holds up under scrutiny though. While it is clear that religions can absolutely compel/instill/instigate/propel (choose your word here) people to do a variety of things they may not otherwise do, it doesn't mean that their motives are good or that it is being done for the right reasons. Nor does it mean it is sending the right message.

Yes , faith can make you accomplish things that otherwise you might not have . This involves growing faith , which the pictured analogy in the bible would be one of a seed growing into a huge tree. Faith according to bible scripture must be nurtured and "increased ", as it either increases or decreases , faith is not static as far as Christianity is concerned . Mission work assures that ones faith does not remain static and is grown , which in turn makes them a stronger individual. This is where the fortitude comes from , to allow them to brave these adversities to help others., that others might not be able to without this component.

Based on the idea of mission involving servitude , I highly doubt that hidden motives would come into play . What hidden motive could there be for going to build a well in the poorest part of El Salvador , or bringing toothbrushes and dental hygiene to cut off villages in Iraq and Afghanistan? What about the times they do this knowing they will be killed, or imprisoned if they proselytize, yet they do it without being able to give a message anyway?

The doctors without borders were killed because they were thought to have been proselytizing , which I highly doubt . They are based on neutrality ,with no religious or political agenda.

Granted You made a good point about how an intervention did cause and has caused issues , due to the "message ", they were sending concerning contraceptives . This has since changed , but the over all good they do should not be dismissed either.

The main motive of a Christian helping the other is the fulfillment that comes along with the act of serving others . This is a basic tenet of the Christian faith. Servitude , not a hidden agenda , would not fit here .

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 192 by Clownboat]

Both actions are done due to their religious beliefs.
Muslims are willing to blow themselves up for theirs, Christians are just willing to put band aides on people in dangerous neighborhoods.

Who has the greater religious conviction here?
Welcome to the Islamic faith.

Islamic terrorist , not Muslims in general , are willing to become suicide bombers . The caliphs and mullahs use religion to placate their guilt , to absolve themselves from culpability as murderers. They use these attacks only to cause mayhem , there is no religious gain , or growth in their faith, that comes from this action, unless you can explain one. We are talking about gaining strength from faith , not killing yourself over it . Seems awful counterproductive, doesn't it?

The analogy does not work. I understand where you are going with this , but not the same by any means .

Unless you are an extremist leader with an agenda ,beyond religion , which is surely the case with the IS. (iSIS) Extremist are about gaining power, more than religious motivations , they use religion as conduit to wreak havoc, not grow faith. They rule by intimidation and oppression, (strict Sharia)not by growing faith.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 170 by tam]

If you conduct religious rituals, you are practicing religion. I don't see how that can be seen any other way.

Saying grace before meals,
Attending church every Sunday morning
Baptism
Communion
Prayer meetings
Raising you hands to god in worship
Closing your eyes when praying
Standing together in a congregation and singing
Holding hands during worship or prayer
Altar calls
The laying on of hands
Annointing with oil
Chanting the lord's prayer
Quiet times
Speaking in tongues
Holy laughter
Being slain in the spirit
Spiritual warfare
Praying the sinner's prayer

And that's just in protestant churches!

These are all religious rituals conducted regularly by Christians. Anyone who claims to be doing these things is clearly religious and many Christians do most of these things on a regular basis. Often religiously.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 190 by enviousintheeverafter]

"Premier"? That's probably correct, if you simply mean most numerous or well-represented. But then, Christians also make up the largest portion of the global population, so they're going to be the most numerous of many things, both good and bad (including the premier exploiters and subjugators, historically, of the downtrodden), as tam noted.

Well , we surely have our transgressions , no doubt. The world has evolved out of much ignorance of the past , Christians included. Historically , sure there have been transgressions on others , presently that is not the case as far as Christian interactions with indigenous people now, they are there to serve.

And what reasons do you have for thinking this is the case? Doesn't seem like something one could possibly know, concerning the inner motivations and psychology of individuals you've never met. And since compassion and volunteerism appear to be general traits of humanity, not anything unique to Christians, it would seem that the Bible/Christianity/missionary work is not so much a cause of such behavior as it is a convenient vehicle for expressing it.

Testimony , that is how we know all of what happens with the missionaries and what we have going on big and small all over the world concerning helping others . One must testify.

This is more about strength and fortitude , more than compassion , that is a given. These might be the traits of many , but having them and utilizing them are two totally different things. The bible teaches Christians to utilize these traits , as many do not volunteer as much as you seem to think. The level of compassion Christians show as a whole religion, goes past that of the average Joe. Way past . One can have compassion all day long, showing that compassion is a different thing , in the form of servitude. This shows sincerity , another positive residual of faith.

[Zzyzx]

.

Yes , faith can make you accomplish things that otherwise you might not have .

The key word is "YOU" (might not have). Others accomplish as much or more without "faith" as a motivator. Perhaps those who accomplish things with the help of "faith" are just in need of more help " from supernatural beliefs (or entities).

The same might apply to morals wherein Christians claim to get help from their beliefs " but cannot be shown to be any more moral than those who receive no such help. Did the Christians start out farther behind so that with help they come out even?

This involves growing faith , which the pictured analogy in the bible would be one of a seed growing into a huge tree. Faith according to bible scripture must be nurtured and "increased ", as it either increases or decreases , faith is not static as far as Christianity is concerned .

Faith seems to be declining in educated, technological, advanced, scientific nations and growing in "backward" areas of Africa, SE Asia and South America. Wonder why?

Based on the idea of mission involving servitude , I highly doubt that hidden motives would come into play . What hidden motive could there be for going to build a well in the poorest part of El Salvador , or bringing toothbrushes and dental hygiene to cut off villages in Iraq and Afghanistan? What about the times they do this knowing they will be killed, or imprisoned if they proselytize, yet they do it without being able to give a message anyway?

Has anyone argued that Christian backed organizations do NO good? Of course any large group is likely to contain at least a few members who are altruistic or humanitarian. So what?

It must be quite a struggle to find SOME benevolence done by Christian organizations with that ONE PERCENT (1%) of church budgets devoted to benevolent causes (while administrative costs and building maintenance consume 65%).

The main motive of a Christian helping the other is the fulfillment that comes along with the act of serving others .

Exactly the same can be said of Non-Christians helping others. Of course, many Christians seem to think they get extra points for "doing God's work" or "pleasing God" or "being Christlike".

[enviousintheeverafter]

Testimony , that is how we know all of what happens with the missionaries and what we have going on big and small all over the world concerning helping others .

So we have testimony from everyone, stating that the Bible was their primary source of motivation or strength? Where can I view all this? Or are you merely assuming that something you read somewhere applies across the board?

This is more about strength and fortitude , more than compassion , that is a given. These might be the traits of many , but having them and utilizing them are two totally different things. The bible teaches Christians to utilize these traits , as many do not volunteer as much as you seem to think. The level of compassion Christians show as a whole religion, goes past that of the average Joe. Way past .

Since the average Joe is typically Christian (at least in this part of the world), I'm not sure what to make of that- but I wonder if you actually have any evidence that Christians are generally more compassionate than anyone else, or is this just a conviction?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 197 by Zzyzx]

The key word is "YOU" (might not have). Others accomplish as much or more without "faith" as a motivator. Perhaps those who accomplish things with the help of "faith" are just in need of more help " from supernatural beliefs (or entities).

They are motivated by their faith as in their religion, not faith as in a trusting of themselves. I am quite sure one can have faith in anything without religion.

The same might apply to morals wherein Christians claim to get help from their beliefs " but cannot be shown to be any more moral than those who receive no such help. Did the Christians start out farther behind so that with help they come out even?

These volunteers are very dedicated with high moral standards, the same would not apply. Christians are sinners just the same, none escape sin , that is unrealistic to think your Christianity makes you more moral than the other, as far as judging them by what they do , compared to what you do, as far as your transgressions go.. This is left to God in this religion.

God has no favorites , he states this when speaking of how servants should be treated.. So this would not be a belief of a Christian..

Exactly the same can be said of Non-Christians helping others. Of course, many Christians seem to think they get extra points for "doing God's work" or "pleasing God" or "being Christlike".

Really ? O.k, if they are non Christians , than more than likely they do not believe they have a soul , so what are they fulfilling ? What do you think they are fulfilling ? I do not believe the exact same could be said .

[Zzyzx]

.

The key word is "YOU" (might not have). Others accomplish as much or more without "faith" as a motivator. Perhaps those who accomplish things with the help of "faith" are just in need of more help " from supernatural beliefs (or entities).

They are motivated by their faith as in their religion, not faith as in a trusting of themselves. I am quite sure one can have faith in anything without religion.

If as much can be accomplished without religion (or "faith") what is the reason to be religious (in this regard)?