Can Atheists & Agnostics be objective about spirituality

[Bro Dave]

Atheists & Agnostics seem to have an unwriten dogma about anything spiritual. Most,(but not all) seem to have a negative emotional reaction to anything not physically measureable. Are they suffering an over reaction to having commited to an idealogy that later embarassed them, leaving them incapable of objectivity in the arena of spirituality?

Bro Dave

(I just realized I accidently put this in the wrong area... I think it belongs under philosophy, if so feel free to move it)

[Bro Dave]

I would like to know what you mean by spirituality. It might even require what you mean by objective. I see no reason why Atheists and Agnostics would not be every bit as spiritual or as objective as any one else. I would not think anyone in their right mind would think of themselves or anyone else as

being just a chunk of meat, that stumbled into existence, and will rot away with out a trace

I absolutely agree! I personally view Atheists and Agnostics as automatically being potentially more likely to be moral, ethical, and yes, spiritual. Its just that spirituality and religiosity have gotten so entangled, that most fail to see the difference.

I sure do not see that in the eyes and smiles of my children or anyone elses. I read this book call women with out superstition or something like that I admired the depth, honesty, compassion, and vision these people had of humanity. They were every bit as spiritual and objective as anyone I have known in religous circles. They all made King David look like the shallow evil person that he was. If there is a God then we all live in a spiritual dimension like a fish lives in water. If there is none it is the same.

Your spirituality is shining like a jewel…

QED wrote:
it is safe to say that there is no measurable evidence for any continuation beyond death, nor for any mechanism or motive other than hope.

I would like to add hope is not the sole domain of the religious or spiritual.
Honesty is not the domain of the religious and spiritual. Fear and doubt maybe the domain of the religious as well as intolerence.

We ARE on the same page!

Bro Dave

[israeltour]

If I can lend a slightly different perspective on spirituality:

I am spiritual because I can perceive my spirit. It's weird, and I could probably never instruct someone on how to "do it". But, I know what my spirit would be content doing, and what my flesh would be content doing... especially when they are two completely different things! But it's more than that...

This has only happened to me twice that I can remember, but I've been praying to God, and He answered me in an audible voice. It wasn't like sound in the room, but almost like audible static in my head. It was weird. I always "test the spirit", because I feel it to be arrogant when certain Christians present every impression they have as a "word from God". So, I test it first. Certainly the two times this audible voice answered me, it was correct. Two for two.

I recently felt the strong impression that I had to talk to someone at my church. He was really happy about something that happened and had announced to the congregation, but I had this feeling he was falling off-guard and could experience a spiritual attack very soon. He was also a stranger. I'd never done this before, but I approached him. I qualifed that I wasn't claiming this to be a prohpecy, just that he should remain on guard. He became quite upset at me actually... but soon after he lost his job. When I discussed it with him, he had everything in perspective. I am not sure, but I think God may have used me to prepare him for his coming trial.

Beyond that, I can just "tell" He's there. I don't know why. I reached a crossroads one day, and I realized that to head in a direction like atheism, I'd have to ignore what I could clearly perceive... but it's not physical by any means.

Now, why do I describe my experiences? None are scientifically measurable, and coincidence and intuition are not limited to the religious or even the God-fearing. I share it to make the point that I believe I'm being objective in assessing the existence of my spirit, but this does nothing for the atheist. I want to be evidence for them, but it is not. It is my experience alone, and if these experiences are not spiritual (because there are no spirits), then it's logical to think there is another explanation... especially with so many other religions in the world (even Satanic ones!) whose members have similar claims. So frankly, what is an atheist to think? I have to tell you, I have a twinge of doubt regarding everyone else's spiritual experiences accept my own... mine are the only ones that hold water with me. When a paster claims to have to the gift of prophecy, I sit back and watch. If it comes to pass, fine. If it doesn't, I'm not going to that church anymore. I state this candidly to express sympathy for the atheist's view of spirituality... I'd think the same way, but for my own personal experiences. Mine are the only experiences I can even attempt to be truly objective about. Everyone else's experiences are subject to my scrutiny... and I've found some to be truly in touch with God (a conclusion I come to after much observation) and others to be simply full of themselves. It's an unfortnate truth that the church is filled with many of the latter type, and that's often the only "objective" evidence an atheist might have!

[ENIGMA]

Okay, I probably got a little overly graphic… I apologize. I was trying to make the point that we so obviously are more that just this vehicle.

Is that so?

Then I must inquire, when the corpus callosum is severed, which section is the driver in?

What you've come out with is a favorite poke at the unbelievers and I've heard much the same from numerous other believers. But you must know that it's a very cheap shot. So what's the motivation? It's perfectly obvious: the reality of rotting is undeniable.

Again, I apologize for the graphics. But the reason it is an uncomfortable description, I suspect, is because one senses instinctively that it is untrue!

...or because while one can readily see the downside of death, it requires some thought and reflection to see the downside of irrevocably eternal life.

The exclusion of the possibility of us being more that simply a physical body, may seem lofty and even scientific. However, one must close ones eyes to literally mountains of documented claims made by humans of experiencing beyond those bodies.

Are there more or fewer documented claims for people who claim to have been abducted by aliens?

The history of science and scientists is filled with folks who, in the name of the science of their time, denied what later was proven to be true. I suggest a look back will bring a blush to the cheeks of many as to what is and what is not “real”.

Just demonstrate it for the rest of the class and you are good to go.

[QED]

Okay, I probably got a little overly graphic… I apologize. I was trying to make the point that we so obviously are more that just this vehicle.

Obviously? Where in the nexus of life is it obvious that creatures transcend their mortal vehicle? I doubt if you's say it's obvious that bacteria, plankton, shrimp or ducks once born go on forever in another realm. Looking at the 300 ft. tall stack of compressed seashells that make up the White Cliffs of Dover something doesn't seem quite so obvious about the notion -- unless that is we are a special animal

Well, at the risk of entering the category of a total “Flake”, I disagree. Many make claims of some sort of extra physical contacts. Are they proofs? Only for the one who experiences them. I can refer you to literally thousands of conversations between our unseen administrators,(teachers if you will). The only “proof” is in evaluating what is said, and the motives behind what is said. Still, totally subjective unless you personally receive the message.

Oh, the reliability of ones own senses. You see, I used to suffer from a sensory glitch called the Old Hag Syndrome. Now once I found out what this was all about I thought to myself "goodness, this must really have thrown people before science got a grip on it!". Once you've been fooled by your senses in such a tangible way it becomes clear that our connection with reality is not as reliable as we might first think. It may not be a particulary easy thing to swallow, but we are by definition all a little psychotic, because our cognition is not directly-coupled to our sensors. The only reason it seems to be thus is because the majority of the time it works for us. My other favorite example is the unfortunate motorcyclist who is knocked off his bike by a car driver who pulls out from a road junction having looked to see if the way is clear of other cars. The driver is not expecting to see a bike, and as a result does not see a bike.

I could go on forever pointing out the non-linearities of human cognition, but I'm sure you've already got my message. In short, we are somewhat predisposed to perceptive glitches. This fact makes any mystical experience infinitely more likely to be a result of this sort of glitch than something supernatural, which steadfastly refuses to be measurable or repeatable. I'm not just being cynical for the sake of it. I'm taking into account observations, psycological phenomena and motivations that lead to nothing that the military can make any use of whatsoever.

Again, I apologize for the graphics. But the reason it is an uncomfortable description, I suspect, is because one senses instinctively that it is untrue!

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. Please meet me somewhere at least half-way. I've already said that I abhor the notion of my passing into nothingness yet I do not resort to fantasy to relieve the painful thought. This uncomfortable feeling has everything to do with the cold hard reality of staring at a deceased person and nothing to do with thinking that maybe I've got it all wrong and they're romping around in heaven. Now I've tried to think that through for you, perhaps you could try thinking about it my way.

The exclusion of the possibility of us being more that simply a physical body, may seem lofty and even scientific. However, one must close ones eyes to literally mountains of documented claims made by humans of experiencing beyond those bodies.

Even scientific! I should say so! My eyes are keenly focussed on all such reports, I'm fascinated by such matters. I'm even an avid watcher of TV programs about the paranormal simply because I'm trying to get a handle on what appears like a big bunch of mistaken people. Repeated exposure to this sort of thing rapidly paints a picture of the cognitive processes which result in confusion between natural and supernatural phenomena.

[Bro Dave]

Okay, I probably got a little overly graphic… I apologize. I was trying to make the point that we so obviously are more that just this vehicle.

Obviously? Where in the nexus of life is it obvious that creatures transcend their mortal vehicle? I doubt if you'd say it's obvious that bacteria, plankton, shrimp or ducks once born go on forever in another realm.

Thank you for realizing that is not my position.

Looking at the 300 ft. tall stack of compressed seashells that make up the White Cliffs of Dover something doesn't seem quite so obvious about the notion -- unless that is we are a special animal

Actually, I don’t see us primarily as animals. I see us as spirit, temporarily housed in a material vehicle. (Ya gotta start somewhere…)

Well, at the risk of entering the category of a total “Flake”, I disagree. Many make claims of some sort of extra physical contacts. Are they proofs? Only for the one who experiences them. I can refer you to literally thousands of conversations between our unseen administrators,(teachers if you will). The only “proof” is in evaluating what is said, and the motives behind what is said. Still, totally subjective unless you personally receive the message.

Oh, the reliability of ones own senses. You see, I used to suffer from a sensory glitch called the Old Hag Syndrome. Now once I found out what this was all about I thought to myself "goodness, this must really have thrown people before science got a grip on it!". Once you've been fooled by your senses in such a tangible way it becomes clear that our connection with reality is not as reliable as we might first think. It may not be a particulary easy thing to swallow, but we are by definition all a little psychotic, because our cognition is not directly-coupled to our sensors. The only reason it seems to be thus is because the majority of the time it works for us. My other favorite example is the unfortunate motorcyclist who is knocked off his bike by a car driver who pulls out from a road junction having looked to see if the way is clear of other cars. The driver is not expecting to see a bike, and as a result does not see a bike.

I’m not sure how a diatribe against our very fallible senses applies here, but the experiences such as out-of-body, or interactions with non physical reality is rarely experienced via the physical senses.

I could go on forever pointing out the non-linearities of human cognition, but I'm sure you've already got my message. In short, we are somewhat predisposed to perceptive glitches. This fact makes any mystical experience infinitely more likely to be a result of this sort of glitch than something supernatural, which steadfastly refuses to be measurable or repeatable. I'm not just being cynical for the sake of it. I'm taking into account observations, psycological phenomena and motivations that lead to nothing that the military can make any use of whatsoever.

So, if you have not personally experienced it, it’s a psychosis, right? Seem consistent if not reasonable.

Again, I apologize for the graphics. But the reason it is an uncomfortable description, I suspect, is because one senses instinctively that it is untrue!

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. Please meet me somewhere at least half-way. I've already said that I abhor the notion of my passing into nothingness yet I do not resort to fantasy to relieve the painful thought. This uncomfortable feeling has everything to do with the cold hard reality of staring at a deceased person and nothing to do with thinking that maybe I've got it all wrong and they're romping around in heaven. Now I've tried to think that through for you, perhaps you could try thinking about it my way.

Were you the randomly come together bunch of non directed molecules you seem to proclaim, I doubt you’d have that aggravating internal voice that reminds you of your mortality. We are unique in the animal kingdom in that respect.

The exclusion of the possibility of us being more that simply a physical body, may seem lofty and even scientific. However, one must close ones eyes to literally mountains of documented claims made by humans of experiencing beyond those bodies.

Even scientific! I should say so! My eyes are keenly focussed on all such reports, I'm fascinated by such matters. I'm even an avid watcher of TV programs about the paranormal simply because I'm trying to get a handle on what appears like a big bunch of mistaken people. Repeated exposure to this sort of thing rapidly paints a picture of the cognitive processes which result in confusion between natural and supernatural phenomena.

And so it will continue, so long as you insist on dragging the more sophisticated spiritual realm down into the material for scientific dissection. Some how, you are willing to allow for quantum mechanics to declare the existence of 11 dimensions, and the existence of banes and strings, but any allusion to a spiritual realm must be cast out prima fascia; Strange…

Bro Dave

[Nyril]

I doubt you’d have that aggravating internal voice that reminds you of your mortality. We are unique in the animal kingdom in that respect.

In what way? I've seen dogs sulk when they've done bad. It certainly looks like they feel guilty.

[Bro Dave]

I doubt you’d have that aggravating internal voice that reminds you of your mortality. We are unique in the animal kingdom in that respect.

In what way? I've seen dogs sulk when they've done bad. It certainly looks like they feel guilty.

Actually, I was speaking of our introspection, and our awareness that we are mortal. I seriously doubt your pouch has given the possibility of any aferlife much thought.

Bro Dave

[McCulloch]

Actually, I don’t see us primarily as animals. I see us as spirit, temporarily housed in a material vehicle. (Ya gotta start somewhere…)

That is a very nice opinion. But since the topic of this debate has to do with objectivity (your choice of words), could you add something objective to the topic? Unless I missed it, you have yet to define what you mean by being objective in the spiritual realm.

Edited to correct quote tags.

[Bro Dave]

Actually, I don’t see us primarily as animals. I see us as spirit, temporarily housed in a material vehicle. (Ya gotta start somewhere…)

That is a very nice opinion. But since the topic of this debate has to do with objectivity (your choice of words), could you add something objective to the topic? Unless I missed it, you have yet to define what you mean by being objective in the spiritual realm.

Edited to correct quote tags.

Objectivity in any realm comes down to acceptance by the individual. Let me make a crude example if I may.

Lets say you love to listen to the radio. But, you only have an AM, and its noisey. I tell you that there are radio stations that are wonderfully clear, with no static! But you tell me, you've tuned across the entire band, and you've found no such stations. Well, if I'm tuning in FM stations, and you are searching AM bands, our perceptions will be different, and so will our conclusions.
You and I are both being objective. If you choose not to believe in "FM bands", it is a valid choice. But it is hardly fair to conclude that I'm deluded in claiming to be listening to "FM ".



Bro Dave

[Curious]

It is precisely because atheists and agnostics are objective about spirituality that they are atheists and agnostics. You might ask whether theists can look at it objectively rather than subjectively.