What's the purpose of life in God's eyes?

[lostguest]

If God knew even before he created the universe which souls would accept him and end up going to heaven why didn't he just take those souls directly to him upon their creation rather than having them, all the other ones that would end up getting condemned and all the animals he created experience all the pain and suffering that life offers? Isn't it sadistic for him to just sit and watch all the suffering when he already knew what the outcome would be before it happened and could have just skipped to the end? Please keep in mind in your answers that I'm not talking about predestination or suppression of free will.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 11 by ttruscott]

ttruscott, I asked this before but you didn't address it so I'm asking again. Can you please explain how the countless prophecies in the Bible, such as Judas' betrayal or Peter's denial are not violations of their free will but being able to know who will ultimately be saved or condemned is?

You asked before??? On this thread? Okey dokey, fine by me sorry to miss it.

We have no free will here on earth so it could not be violated in the verses you mention. Instead we have predestined lives, designed to bring HIS sinful elect, the wheat to maturity and holiness.

GOd did not limit our free will, we did:
1.
When we chose to become evil in HIS sight we became enslaved by evil and unable to serve any other master ie goodness:John 8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. This enslavement destroys our free will, constraining it and coercing it to be evil only.

2.
When we learned the truth of whether GOD was a true GOD or a false god after we had chosen against him, the proof of HIS divinity destroyed our ability to choose for HIM ever again freely because knowing that truth, the reprobate knew where life and death lay and were forever constrained (ie forced) to act in thier best self interest to now bow to HIM against their first true free will choice to reject HIM. This kind of false acceptence can never lead to true love nor true worship.

They are broken by choice beyond repair.

3.
IF GOD gave us the ability to make true free will decisons and then asked us to do so, implicity in that is the agreement to abide by our decisions for eternity or it is a meaningless exercise. Since the consequences are huge, it is obvious that GOD told us with dire warnings the consequences of rejecting HIM and HIS purpose for our creation, but did not show any coercive proof that would break our free will.

HE knows who wil ultimately be saved and damned because He knows our true free will decisions...not by HIS choosing who ends where.

Peace, Ted

[lostguest]

[Replying to post 21 by ttruscott]

ttrustcott, I'm still a little confused about your position, please clarify.
You said: "We have no free will here on earth" but then you also said "When we chose to become evil". So, the part I'm missing is, since according to your views we have no free will, at what point then did we voluntarily chose to become evil? Is this similar to when God hardened Pharaoh's heart just so he could show his power?

I also have a few more points I would like for you clarify.
- Is what you're saying that God created life with the sole purpose of teaching "his elect" what they need to know in order to be ready to spend eternity with him?
- If one of "God's elect" was given by Him the choice to die prematurely, that person would not be worthy of salvation since most likely he/she wouldn't had yet at that point reached the level of "holiness" needed to be with God. I understand of course that in your view that is impossible since God would not allow an "elect" to die before having reached his decreed destiny.
- Are God's "elect" basically "angels in the making" until the moment they reach the desired "maturity and holiness" level at which point they become equivalent to regular angels (excluding Lucifer and his followers, I assume)?
- Were the souls predestined for condemnation created by God with the sole purpose of being "training aids" in the lives of His"elect" to help them accomplish their destiny of reaching the maturity and holiness needed to be with Him?
- Do those souls predestined for condemnation also serve a dual purpose of providing entertainment for God and his "elect" as they watch them burn and be torture for eternity in Hell?

And my final question is: While I understand that in your view, God decreed that "his elect" will "learn" through life's experiences, what they need to know in order to reach His desired level of maturity and holiness. Let's say that He decided to create another human like race in another dimension. Does He have the power to decree that that new race will be created with an already built-in knowledge, maturity and holiness level he expects "His elect" to reach in this our planet earth or are God's powers limited to what he created and decreed here on earth even if he decided to start creation all over again?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 21 by ttruscott]

ttrustcott, I'm still a little confused about your position, please clarify.
You said: "We have no free will here on earth" but then you also said "When we chose to become evil". So, the part I'm missing is, since according to your views we have no free will, at what point then did we voluntarily chose to become evil? Is this similar to when God hardened Pharaoh's heart just so he could show his power?

All of my theology is based upon the premise that we were created as spirits in the image of GOD with the ability to make true free will decisions in the spirit world before the creation of the physical universe. This free will was broken as mentioned in a previous post, before we were born as humans into predestinated lives designed to bring HIS sinful elect to holiness and the reprobate to judgment.

I also have a few more points I would like for you clarify.
- Is what you're saying that God created life with the sole purpose of teaching "his elect" what they need to know in order to be ready to spend eternity with him?

LIFE has two meanings that must be separated. If life means 'existence' then HE created us to have full, loving, holy communion with HIM forever in heaven. IF life means 'earthly life' then it refers to HIS forming those of HIS elect who chose to reject HIS plan for the damnation of the non-elect to be human to be redeemed and to be sanctified by learning about the true nature of evil until they repent unto holiness.

- If one of "God's elect" was given by Him the choice to die prematurely, that person would not be worthy of salvation since most likely he/she wouldn't had yet at that point reached the level of "holiness" needed to be with God. I understand of course that in your view that is impossible since God would not allow an "elect" to die before having reached his decreed destiny.

I believe that the nature of our choices in sheol by which the elect became sinners were such that they separated into a hierarchy of distance from GOD, for lack of a better phrase, NOT due to any gradation of evil since any sin has ultimate disvalue, but in the willingness of the person to reject GOD and become a sinner.

I think Romans teaches us that men are born into Adam's death, (not his sin), so Christ may die once for all and so it seems to me that if a sinful but repentant elect needed very little time as a human to come under Adam's death, they could die while in the womb, their redemption fulfilled. If Jacob and Esau could be fighting in the womb, another person could accept Christ, repent and be saved in the womb.

But you are right, election was a promise by GOD that HE would always do everything and anything to bring HIS elect to heaven and fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, so it cannot fail.

- Are God's "elect" basically "angels in the making" until the moment they reach the desired "maturity and holiness" level at which point they become equivalent to regular angels (excluding Lucifer and his followers, I assume)?

A spirit is a spirit. The different words that are supposedly describing different creatures are merely descriptions of different jobs, different ways of service to GOD, different ways of worshipping HIM. Angel means messenger; get the job, get the name. But the vast majority of HIS spirits did not rebel against HIM and chose by their true free will to always follow HIS lead and thus became holy by choice which was fixed when they learned the truth about YHWH by HIS display of divinity and power at the creation of the physical universe.

Satan and his followers, the ones he sows into the world as the tares, are the ones who rebelled against HIM by rejecting all HIS promises of election and salvation, sealing their fate when HE proved HIS divinity.

So "angels in the making" does not really fit into what I believe - we are spirits having a human experience designed to return us to HIM in holiness since we went astray in rebellion, as per the parables. When we receive our resurrected bodies, I do not know what jobs we will be doing for HIM in the new heaven and the new earth.

- Were the souls predestined for condemnation created by God with the sole purpose of being "training aids" in the lives of His"elect" to help them accomplish their destiny of reaching the maturity and holiness needed to be with Him?

Not at all. Not in the least. I completely reject the idea that predestination happened before creation since it means that GOD knew their fate in hell but created them anyway which is a smear on HIS good name I loudly condemn.

Those predestined to hell are those who rejected YHWH as their GOD putting their faith in the hope HE was a false god with no power to condemn nor reward anyone. Thus they became enslaved by sin, unable to save themselves and outside of the only force that could save them, GOD's grace, fit only to be discarded in gehenna.

The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us GOD allows satan to sow his people into the world and that the sinful elect wheat must live with them to become mature, ie, holy. So while you have their purpose on earth correctly, they were not created to that purpose but once they self created themselves as eternally evil, HE uses them to HIS purpose of sanctifying HIS sinful elect. Soon as this job is over and HIS earthly elect holy and safe from sharing their fate, then the judgment.

- Do those souls predestined for condemnation also serve a dual purpose of providing entertainment for God and his "elect" as they watch them burn and be torture for eternity in Hell?

Are you nuts?

And my final question is: While I understand that in your view, God decreed that "his elect" will "learn" through life's experiences, what they need to know in order to reach His desired level of maturity and holiness. Let's say that He decided to create another human like race in another dimension. Does He have the power to decree that that new race will be created with an already built-in knowledge, maturity and holiness level he expects "His elect" to reach in this our planet earth or are God's powers limited to what he created and decreed here on earth even if he decided to start creation all over again?

I don't know...

Peace, Ted