Where did Lucifer come from?

ST88 · Post by **ST88** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:24 pm

If Satan is/was a fallen angel, why wasn't the battle in Heaven mentioned in Genesis?

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:48 pm

hiramabbi2 wrote:Gap Theory is just another fairy-tale not supported by the Scripture. It's very good story before going to sleep. It's an invention of the unbelievers, who could not support their view with Scripture. And, it has nothing to do with Lucifer.

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote: I gave a logically sound and valid argument with plenty of Scriptural support. It's ridiculous that on a debate forum one responds to my arguments with "that's just a fairy tale" and doesn't bother to refute my argument. "The gap in Genesis is false, cuz I said so!"

The problem with your theory and imagination, is you're combining apples and oranges, thus, creating a very sour grapefruit juice.

None of those cited verses you mentioned and so proud about

in connection with Lucifer and those other "fallen angels" have anything to do with the actual context of Genesis 1:1-3.... except they were witnesses from the outside, that's all.

Someone told me once before and is very similar to J. Cochran famous phrase..... "IF IT DOESN'T FIT, YOU MUST QUIT".

Therefore, I will suggest that you quit exalting yourself above measures to what is written in the Bible. Remember the Story of Babel?

I've already given you the the Scriptures for your additional learning. TRY reading it again without your pre-conceived notion. If you still have problem understanding, then, by all means, please let me know.

God Bless

Esoteric_Illuminati · Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:16 am

To those that respect the rules of this forum and the concept of debate, I still welcome any questions/comments to the argument I presented.

Colter · Post by **Colter** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:05 am

The lucifer rebelion is explained in detail in the Urantia revelation for those interested.http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper53.html

Part 2http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper54.html

Arch · Post by **Arch** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:57 pm

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote:
Seriously, can you respond with anything other than ad hominem attacks? Not to mention the gall it takes to call myself and Arch "unbelievers." Judge not my friend, lest ye be judged first.

I concur, this is the same person that called me a atheist, which I am not. I suggest that if you want to know what I am just ask and stop making assumptions.

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote:
BTW, I resent the asinine implication that I am Arch...
...it is just plain false. Arch disagreed and responded to one of my posts in the "Born Again" thread. Besides, why would I need another SN? I like mine. Esoteric_Illuminati is much more original than "Arch."
<3 Arch

Hey I think Arch is original dag!!!!

The only thing that is unoriginal here is Hiram's tendancies to judge what he knows not, and to insult a person to get off of the issues or scriptures at hand.

I personally am tired of his assumptions

Back to the matter at hand the Devil

I think we all agree that the devil or satan fell somewhere during the time of Geneisis, why isn't it in the book is the question at hand I think

proverbial student · Post by **proverbial student** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:24 pm

dangerdan wrote:Sorry to press a point, but I’m genuinely curious if there are any Christians out there willing to say that God made the Devil?

Yes, God created everything because nothing existed but Him in the beginning.

As to the Devil in Genesis. Genesis was written way after the alleged events occurred, and when I mean way after, I mean lots of years. The stories in the early OT were handed down verbally by those who were polytheists and superstitious to boot. These stories were handed down to those who wrote them called something like the Priestly People, so those who actually wrote the first books of the OT did not even experience any of this to know. It was just a way for those to explain the evolution of mankind.

Have you ever heard the saying knowledge is neither good nor bad it is what you do with it that matters. Likewise all things God made were essentially good it is what we choose to do with it. There could have been a serpent OR Eve being disobedient chose to break the one law given her...she chose to do evil rather than good, but even then that is just an orally produced story. When a baby is born do you think it is evil in nature or does it learn its behaviour? Do you think the Devil inhabits the child or does the child of its own free will choose to do evil rather than good?

Clearly, the Bible speaks of Satan many times over in the NT, but even if there is truly a Satan, we have a choice to follow him or not.

hiramabbi2 · Post by **hiramabbi2** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:03 pm

Arch wrote:Back to the matter at hand the Devil I think we all agree that the devil or satan fell somewhere during the time of Geneisis, why isn't it in the book is the question at hand I think

According to what is written in the Scripture....

DEUTERONOMY 29
29 The SECRET things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Therefore, it is none our business why it is not written in the Book of Genesis.

God Bless

Esoteric_Illuminati · Post by **Esoteric_Illuminati** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:04 am

hiramabbi2 wrote:
Arch wrote:Back to the matter at hand the Devil I think we all agree that the devil or satan fell somewhere during the time of Geneisis, why isn't it in the book is the question at hand I think
According to what is written in the Scripture....

DEUTERONOMY 29
29 The SECRET things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Therefore, it is none our business why it is not written in the Book of Genesis.

And obviously, God's revealed truth is not limited to Genesis.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It is not necessary for the revelation of the fall of the angels to be explained in Genesis. Given the revelations from Job to Peter regarding the angels, there is no doubt the fall of the angels is part of God's truth. Subsequently, I believe that the only logical place in Scripture to consider the fall of the angels is between Genesis 1:1-2. Not only that, but it makes perfect sense and answers alot of questions.

proverbial_student wrote:As to the Devil in Genesis. Genesis was written way after the alleged events occurred, and when I mean way after, I mean lots of years. The stories in the early OT were handed down verbally by those who were polytheists and superstitious to boot. These stories were handed down to those who wrote them called something like the Priestly People, so those who actually wrote the first books of the OT did not even experience any of this to know. It was just a way for those to explain the evolution of mankind.

I tend to believe that Moses was given a revelation from God about the creation account given in Genesis. The entire Pentateuch was then passed down by Jewish priests and scribes. The author of Joshua speaks of the "Book of the Law of Moses" (Joshua 23:6), as does the author of Kings (1 Kings 2:3 and 2 Kings 14:6), and the author of Chronicles, Ezra, Daniel, etc. We know by these times, Israel had established scribes whose sole purpose in life was to copy these sacred texts, word for word.
Josephus wrote,
We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For, although such long ages have no passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them. Time and again ere now the sight has been witnessed of prisoners enduring tortures and death in every form in the theatres, rather than utter a single word against the laws and the allied documents.

As for the early accounts of Genesis itself, it is far less mythical than the polytheistic accounts in ancient literature. Josh McDowell writes:

The openining chapters of Genesis (1-11) are typically thought to be mythological explanations derived from earlier versions of the story found in the ancient Near East. But this view chooses only to notice the similiarities between Genesis and the creation stories in other ancient cultures. If we can propose derivation of the human race from one family, plus general revelation, some lingering traces of the true historical account would be expected. The differences are more important. Babylonian and Sumerian accoutns describe the creation as the product of a conflict among finite gods. When one god is defeated and split in half, the River Euphrates flows from one eye and the Tigris from the other. Humanity is made of the blood of an evil god mixed with clay. These tales display the kind of distortion and embellishment to be expected when a historical account becomes mythological.
Less likely is that the literary progression would be from this mythology to the unadorned elegance of Genesis 1. The common assumption that the Hebrew account is simply a purged and simplified version of the Babylonian legend is fallacious. In the Ancient Near East, the rule is that simple accounts or traditions give rise (by accretion and embellishment) to elaborate legends, but not the reverse. So the evidence supports the view that Genesis was not myth made into history. Rather the extrabiblical accounts were history turned into myths."
(Source - McDowell - New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 101)

Clearly, the Bible speaks of Satan many times over in the NT, but even if there is truly a Satan, we have a choice to follow him or not

Indeed - and not only is Satan spoke of many times in the NT, a majority of those references come from Jesus Christ himself, and certainly to a Christian, Jesus' own testimony that Satan exists is the most trustworthy of all. And we know Jesus and His disciples were Jews.

As for Satan mentioned specifically in the OT:
Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD , and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD , who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:48 am

Ok, interesting. It seems to be that most Christian posts seem to say that God created the devil, but he didn’t make the devil “bad”. Instead the devil just went “bad”. Like Otseng’s analogy of having a child that ends up robbing a bank, etc etc.

This is rather curious.

The element that I find inconsistent about this analogy is that we don’t design, from scratch, our children. We can try to rear them in a certain way, but at the end of the day, if they have a random chemical imbalance in their brain that makes them violent, we can hardly blame the parents, as they didn’t design them like this. God, however, designed, from scratch, the devil (according to most of the theology of this board), with full knowledge that he would go “bad”. Does this not course some pause in Christians?

dangerdan · Post by **dangerdan** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:50 am

Cause…not course…sorry.

proverbial student · Post by **proverbial student** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:50 pm

dangerdan wrote:The element that I find inconsistent about this analogy is that we don’t design, from scratch, our children. We can try to rear them in a certain way, but at the end of the day, if they have a random chemical imbalance in their brain that makes them violent, we can hardly blame the parents, as they didn’t design them like this. God, however, designed, from scratch, the devil (according to most of the theology of this board), with full knowledge that he would go “bad”. Does this not course some pause in Christians?

Yes it does for me at least, but it seems based on my furry memory that we are not to judge others. If this person who had a chemical imbalance killed someone or committed some violent act, is this person truly guilty of a heinous crime or were they justifiably insane? The courts do not punish truely insane individuals, right? So, would God, who is the Ultimate Judge? God knows the hearts of man.

On this same line of thinking, why do bad things happen to good people? In addition, why are there people who turn bad? My only answer to this is that it allows others to receive grace from God. When your loved one is sick and dying in the hospital, do you find 100 different ways not to go see them or do you sacrifice your time to insure their life is as comfortable as possible in the very end? If someone commits a heinous crime while being insane and not treated, do you forgive them of this crime even if it is against you? What if they weren't insane, do you judge them? All very hard questions, but we can only look to Job to see how a true Christian would react.

Job is an interesting story of God and Satan. Satan was allowed to do all things to Job EXCEPT kill him to see if he would ever curse God. Just like the rest of us who are tested and tried, do we curse God or cry out to Him? Satan is egocentric, to me. If we become egocentric we are just as bad as Satan as we worship our own desires and wants. God even allowed Satan to challenge His Son Jesus Christ, so why not us?

I'm rambling, sorry.