The Bible

[Bible_Student]

From my perspective, there are several ways we can come to know God. One is through creation itself. We can learn what God the Creator is like by observing nature—its beauty and order. For instance, when we look at the colors of flowers, birds, or fish, we see a God who not only possesses good taste and the ability to express visual beauty but also loves the intelligent beings who would appreciate the very beauty He created for their enjoyment. The same could be said of flavors, scents, and so on. Likewise, we can perceive His immense power and dynamic energy in the vastness of the heavens, as well as in the sheer number and visual arrangement of the stars and everything else visible in the night sky. We also see His power when we consider the energy the sun generates, or the energy inherent in flowing rivers, moving air, and the like. We see His wisdom in the fact that He gave us a planet with oxygen and a temperature suitable for us to live in relative comfort without perishing. We see His love in the provision of sufficient food and water to sustain our lives.

However, nature is not the only way to know God, as it does not reveal many of the specific things we need to understand about Him and His purpose in creating us. By merely looking at the sky, we could not know that the universe had a beginning, nor could we understand the reasons for suffering, disease, and death, or why humanity is in such moral disarray. We would not know why peace remains elusive despite so many people desiring it, or whether God is taking—or will take—action to resolve these human problems.

When God created man, He spoke with him and gave him instructions. The Bible recounts how angels once delivered messages from God to specific servants of His. Yet, simply recounting these stories verbally to others would not suffice for all of humanity to learn these truths. It is well known that accounts tend to become distorted over time, especially long after those who experienced the events firsthand have passed away. I believe that for these reasons, God—the Creator—ensured that the most significant events in human history regarding His intervention in human affairs and on this planet were recorded in written documents. Over time, these came to form the Bible, also known as "the Scriptures." Interestingly, although there have been many attempts to silence these documents, they have survived to this very day. Moreover, they have been translated into virtually every modern human language so that all of humanity can access this knowledge. It is like a divine database that anyone who wishes to do so can consult.

And what do you think? Why might the Creator have decided that a book—or a collection of writings—would serve as the guide to the knowledge humans needed to know Him and understand His purpose?

[Bible_Student]

[Replying to tam in post #20]
In reading accounts of how things functioned within the Christian congregations formed in the first century, I have learned that those Christians were expected to listen to—and learn from—what the early associates of Jesus had themselves learned. No Christian claimed to have special revelations that contradicted what they had already been taught.

Many people joined Jesus’s original disciples. In Paul’s letters, we find much of his counsel to these new converts—counsel directed primarily at Christians who were not of Jewish origin, coming instead from various backgrounds, such as Greek or Roman. Paul consistently urged them to adhere to what they had learned from the original Christians.

The conclusion is that no one was permitted to invent beliefs on their own. Even if someone claimed to have received a spiritual gift—whether or not that was actually the case—the instruction was to examine "the spirit" behind such revelations and verify that the words were not merely human deceptions rather than messages from God; for there were many who were teaching falsehoods.

Anyone might imagine that they are receiving direct words from Jesus—there are plenty of such people around.

Do you "hear" from Jesus in any way other than by reading the teachings of Christ in the Scriptures, or the teachings of the biblical writers who were among God’s first anointed ones? Tell us: what is it that you believe Jesus is telling you—something that is not supported by the Scriptures?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #20]
In reading accounts of how things functioned within the Christian congregations formed in the first century, I have learned that those Christians were expected to listen to—and learn from—what the early associates of Jesus had themselves learned.

John tells people that they need no one to teach them, that instead the anointing they received from Christ teaches them everything:

But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him. 1John 2:27

And again, Christ Himself stated that His sheep listen to His voice. Not just the sheep then and there, but also the other sheep He had yet to call (as well as anyone who hears His voice):

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.


Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Rev 3:20

No Christian claimed to have special revelations that contradicted what they had already been taught.

No one said anything about contradicting Christ.

But the teaching people that they cannot listen to Christ and hear His voice - that is a teaching which contradicts Christ. Nor did the apostles teach such a thing.

It was later men who taught that (erroneously); later men who - by their own admission - do not hear His voice.

Many people joined Jesus’s original disciples. In Paul’s letters, we find much of his counsel to these new converts—counsel directed primarily at Christians who were not of Jewish origin, coming instead from various backgrounds, such as Greek or Roman. Paul consistently urged them to adhere to what they had learned from the original Christians.

Paul also acknowledged that people received revelation. His admonition was only that people speak in an orderly fashion when they come together. 1 Corinth 14

The conclusion is that no one was permitted to invent beliefs on their own.

No one has suggested such a thing.

Even if someone claimed to have received a spiritual gift—whether or not that was actually the case—the instruction was to examine "the spirit" behind such revelations and verify that the words were not merely human deceptions rather than messages from God; for there were many who were teaching falsehoods.

Yes, John said to test the inspired expression.

If all inspired expressions (or spirits) were false, then John would not have needed to tell people to test them. He would simply have said not to listen to any of them.

Instead, he said to test them because there are indeed inspired expressions that people are receiving that come from Christ and God.

Anyone might imagine that they are receiving direct words from Jesus—there are plenty of such people around.

Indeed. But this does not mean that Christ Jah'eshua does not speak. He said, Himself, that He would, that His sheep would listen to His voice, that those other sheep He had yet to call would also listen to His voice.

Him speaking to His sheep is also demonstrated in what is written. In just one example, Christ tells Ananias to go to Paul (then Saul.) Ananais has a conversation with Him. Acts 9:10-15.

Do you "hear" from Jesus in any way other than by reading the teachings of Christ in the Scriptures, or the teachings of the biblical writers who were among God’s first anointed ones?

Not "Jesus". "Jesus" can be any invention that man has created, and I am sure you know there are many different versions out there - icons that man has created. Roman Jesus. Trinity Jesus. Republican Jesus. Hippy Jesus. White Jesus. Whatever 'image' best serves those group's interests.

I hear from Jah'eshua (JAH Saves/Salvation of JAH), the Chosen One of JAH, the Son of God. By hearing His voice, as He said His sheep would do.

I do not need to be reading the scriptures for this to happen.

In fact, it is my Lord Jah'eshua who taught me to test the message. I shared that in 'my personal testimony' in the OP of the the thread "Does Christ speak and How?":

viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

Peace again to you.

[Bible_Student]

@tam Do you think that anyone who claims to be a "Christian" in modern times can apply to themselves any statement that Jesus made to his followers who were alive in his own time?

How can a modern-day follower truly "listen" to Jesus, if not by reading his teachings directly from the Scriptures?

[tam]

Peace to you,

@tam Do you think that anyone who claims to be a "Christian" in modern times can apply to themselves any statement that Jesus made to his followers who were alive in his own time?

How can a modern-day follower truly "listen" to Jesus, if not by reading his teachings directly from the Scriptures?

A 'modern-day' follower can truly listen to Christ in the exact same way that one could listen two thousand years ago.

How did Phillip listen, and so know go to the Ethiopian?
How did Peter listen, and so know to go to Cornelius?
How did Ananais listen, and so know to go to Saul/Paul?
How did any of the others listen, so as to receive revelation to share (as Paul mentioned)?

He spoke to them. In words. In visions (and words.) In the spirit.

From that same thread "Does Christ speak and How?" I shared the following:

He speaks in words. He speaks in visions. He speaks in dreams. He can also bring to mind something learned, read, or experienced in the past to help me see the truth in something He is teaching me. He has opened my eyes to something that is written, if I am reading the bible. He can and has read to me something that He is written to have said, so that I hear it in His voice. That was enlightening.

Sometimes when I am responding to something that someone else has asked, He will give me the words to say, or reveal something to me (as in open my heart and ears to understanding something) that I had not previously understood.

The language that He speaks is truth. He has never spoken anything to me that was not true, and that was not from love. And everything He teaches me deepens my understanding of love: His love and the love of His Father.

**

Bible_Student, did Christ say 'only my sheep today' (meaning two thousand years ago) listen to my voice? Or did He simply 'my sheep' listen to my voice (including the sheep He had yet to call)?


Peace again to you.

[OneJack]

@tam Do you think that anyone who claims to be a "Christian" in modern times can apply to themselves any statement that Jesus made to his followers who were alive in his own time?

Should anyone do that, he would surely be a Biblean in thoughts, deeds, and acts.

How can a modern-day follower truly "listen" to Jesus, if not by reading his teachings directly from the Scriptures?

Listening to the Living Christ across all generations is only by ears, not by eyes; otherwise, everything in this regard is a hoax and false.

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #24]

How did Phillip listen, and so know go to the Ethiopian?
How did Peter listen, and so know to go to Cornelius?
How did Ananais listen, and so know to go to Saul/Paul?
How did any of the others listen, so as to receive revelation to share (as Paul mentioned)?

How do you listen to God today? What exactly did God tell you about Jesus?

[Bible_Student]

[Replying to tam in post #24] [Replying to tam in post #24]
Before Jesus ascended to heaven, he told his disciples:

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of the people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! “I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So: who did Jesus tell them would be with them?

On the other hand, notice here something that Jesus said would happen at the end of this system of things.

Luke 13:25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us.' But in answer he will say to you: 'I do not know where you are from.' 26 Then you will start saying, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.' 27 But he will say to you, 'I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

What do you learn from these teachings of Jesus?