Can "God" be perfect?

[Beto]

This sprouts from an exchange with Greatest I Am.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=280

GIA advocates his god is both perfect and evolving. I naturally assumed he lacked the understanding of what "perfection" means, at least from my perspective. He came up with what I thought was a great argument against himself and to the "God" construct. GIA stated that if God does not evolve, than life and all this information would be of no benefit to it. Makes sense doesn't it? The problem is, GIA wants both. A god that is both perfect (so humans can be perfect since they come from perfection) and yet evolving, thus benefiting from human existence and attributing a purpose to it. Logically, if "God" is imperfect, its creations will be also.

From where I stand, a perfect god has no logical reason to create a universe, and I'm sure this has been pointed out before many times in this forum. A god that wants to be loved, for instance, is in need of something, thus imperfect.

"Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness."

Who wishes to challenge this simple definition, and/or maintain that "God" can be perfect and still "gain" something from human existence?

[Confused]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

[Greatest I Am]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

I did not mean to take you from your usual confused state and add any order.

The point though is that if perfection existed in God’s universe at any time then it must remain or we can say that God is back sliding. This is not allowed for a God.

I believe that perfection has been maintained and that perhaps Satan the great deceiver has fooled many into thinking that God somehow lost the perfection of His systems.

This may be the great lie that some search for from Satan.

Regards
DL

[Confused]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

I did not mean to take you from your usual confused state and add any order.

The point though is that if perfection existed in God’s universe at any time then it must remain or we can say that God is back sliding. This is not allowed for a God.

I believe that perfection has been maintained and that perhaps Satan the great deceiver has fooled many into thinking that God somehow lost the perfection of His systems.

This may be the great lie that some search for from Satan.

Regards
DL

Interesting perspective. Never thought of it. And I understood it too. Let's not make this a habit, K?

Is there any way one could actually think this through and come to that conclusion?

[justifyothers]

This sprouts from an exchange with Greatest I Am.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... &start=280

GIA advocates his god is both perfect and evolving. I naturally assumed he lacked the understanding of what "perfection" means, at least from my perspective. He came up with what I thought was a great argument against himself and to the "God" construct. GIA stated that if God does not evolve, than life and all this information would be of no benefit to it. Makes sense doesn't it? The problem is, GIA wants both. A god that is both perfect (so humans can be perfect since they come from perfection) and yet evolving, thus benefiting from human existence and attributing a purpose to it. Logically, if "God" is imperfect, its creations will be also.

From where I stand, a perfect god has no logical reason to create a universe, and I'm sure this has been pointed out before many times in this forum. A god that wants to be loved, for instance, is in need of something, thus imperfect.

"Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness."

Who wishes to challenge this simple definition, and/or maintain that "God" can be perfect and still "gain" something from human existence?

Well, is it really a flaw to grow/change/adapt ? Does perfect have to mean constant? I mean we're talking universe and creation- two things that are ever changing. Could God change according to these changes? Would that be a bad or less than perfect way?

Is there any way that change is part of perfection the way He created it?

[Beto]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

I did not mean to take you from your usual confused state and add any order.

The point though is that if perfection existed in God’s universe at any time then it must remain or we can say that God is back sliding. This is not allowed for a God.

I believe that perfection has been maintained and that perhaps Satan the great deceiver has fooled many into thinking that God somehow lost the perfection of His systems.

This may be the great lie that some search for from Satan.

Regards
DL

Interesting perspective. Never thought of it. And I understood it too. Let's not make this a habit, K?

Is there any way one could actually think this through and come to that conclusion?

I said I was out... I lied.

"I believe that perfection has been maintained..."

This implies "perfection" had a beginning. And that the beginning was perfect (GIA said it himself, perfect begets perfect). So we have a god that's perfect even though there's no universe. Then we have a god that's still perfect but it's perfect plus a universe. By that rationality this god could choose (out of divine whim) to terminate the universe altogether and still be perfect. Well isn't that just peachy...

[Greatest I Am]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

I did not mean to take you from your usual confused state and add any order.

The point though is that if perfection existed in God’s universe at any time then it must remain or we can say that God is back sliding. This is not allowed for a God.

I believe that perfection has been maintained and that perhaps Satan the great deceiver has fooled many into thinking that God somehow lost the perfection of His systems.

This may be the great lie that some search for from Satan.

Regards
DL

Interesting perspective. Never thought of it. And I understood it too. Let's not make this a habit, K?

Is there any way one could actually think this through and come to that conclusion?

You know that I do not read the Bible literally and that Satan is only a word to represent all evils but this scenario can be applied to what some will read from the Bible.

The possibility is reinforced by the fact that no one can respond to me when I ask just when God lost control of His perfect universe.

Most Christians do believe that He did lose it because they are all waiting for Him to return to fix what ain’t supposed to be breakable.

Strange indeed.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

Perfect is a word we call an absolute adjective. These are adjectives that name qualities that are either present or absent. Other examples include unique, complete and parallel. Unique means one of a kind. Something cannot be very unique or more unique; either there is only one of its kind or there are more than one. Complete means there is no more that is required. Something cannot be very complete or more complete; it can, however, be almost complete or complete with additional entries.

Perfect can mean without flaws. Either there are no flaws or there are flaws. Something cannot be more perfect¹. Either God has flaws or God has no flaws. Perfect can also mean that which cannot be better. This also cannot be a matter of degree. Either God is that which cannot be better or God can improve.


----------------------------------------------------
¹ Notwithstanding the grammatical error in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

See. See. The writers of the constitution see my view.
Just kidding.

Consider though that God added to perfection the moment He created the earth.
Did that fact ruin the existing perfection or did it add to it.

Regards
DL

You almost gave me heart attack. Not only do I see a sense of humor, but 2 consecutive sentence that I can understand. But then you have to go and confuse me again.

Neither. If perfection was added at the exact moment He created the earth, the perfection would have existed as long as the earth existed. One doesn't come without the other.
That still doesn't mean anything though. It sounds pretty though.

I did not mean to take you from your usual confused state and add any order.

The point though is that if perfection existed in God’s universe at any time then it must remain or we can say that God is back sliding. This is not allowed for a God.

I believe that perfection has been maintained and that perhaps Satan the great deceiver has fooled many into thinking that God somehow lost the perfection of His systems.

This may be the great lie that some search for from Satan.

Regards
DL

Interesting perspective. Never thought of it. And I understood it too. Let's not make this a habit, K?

Is there any way one could actually think this through and come to that conclusion?

I said I was out... I lied.

"I believe that perfection has been maintained..."

This implies "perfection" had a beginning. And that the beginning was perfect (GIA said it himself, perfect begets perfect). So we have a god that's perfect even though there's no universe. Then we have a god that's still perfect but it's perfect plus a universe. By that rationality this god could choose (out of divine whim) to terminate the universe altogether and still be perfect. Well isn't that just peachy...

It is certainly better than a God that screws up all that He touches then makes us wait for Him to return to fix things.

Who would want to follow such a loser anyway.

Regards
DL

[Beto]

It is certainly better than a God that screws up all that He touches then makes us wait for Him to return to fix things.

Who would want to follow such a loser anyway.

Well, can't argue with that.

[QED]

Greatest I Am; please remind me what you think the resolution of the problem of evil is. For example, when a gas explosion inside a house knocks down a wall killing a nine-year-old walking to school on the pavement outside, I find it difficult getting inside the head of someone who believes such things are compatible with a perfect world.

[Confused]

I said I was out... I lied.

New you would come back (not really), but glad you did, since it is your thread. Now, 10 Our Fathers..... and 20 Hail Marys...... and go with the nice priest.