"One Nation, Under God"

[SimpleMind]

Every morning I am told, in a PUBIC SCHOOL, to stand up and say that I live in a country under a God in which I do not believe. I find it offensive, and definitely toeing the line between Church and state.
For debate: Should "under God"be kept in the Pledge, and why do you think it was added in the first place in the 1950s?

[Greatest I Am]

Salt Agent, would you be perfectly fine with having "One nation, Under the gods" in the pledge of allegiance?

What name would the Christian God have?
Could the name of God be Allah?
Zoraster?
What name is the best?

Regards
DL

[Beto]

Salt Agent, would you be perfectly fine with having "One nation, Under the gods" in the pledge of allegiance?

What name would the Christian God have?
Could the name of God be Allah?
Zoraster?
What name is the best?

Regards
DL

The name of the one god can be worked around in way or another, but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. In the same way, no self-respecting atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

[Salt Agent]

Greetings, Beto, and GIA

Salt Agent, would you be perfectly fine with having "One nation, Under the gods" in the pledge of allegiance?

What name would the Christian God have?
Could the name of God be Allah?
Zoraster?
What name is the best?

Regards
DL

In regard to your earlier question, I would be fine with one nation under the gods, if that meant that you could be an atheist, and I could worship the Creator God, Yahweh, and Romney could worship the different god that he does, and the muslim could worship Allah. In other words, while there was no ambiguity in the founding Fathers' minds if the God they mentioned was Vishnu or Zoastar, they wanted people to have the right to worship whoever or however they pleased.

Having said that, the God that the founding fathers refer to, prayed to, publicly called upon, and carved in granite all over Washington, wasn't Allah, or Mithras, nor did they mean it to be a universal, all purpose Oprah Winfrey god concept.

The name of the one god can be worked around in way or another, but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. In the same way, no self-respecting atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".

The name of the one god can be worked around in way or another, but no self-respecting Christian would violate the first commandment just because it was in the pledge. Would you care to clarify?
What do you mean? The first commandment is about not having any other Gods before/beside Yahweh. That is not in the pledge. I am not following you...

Also, In the second sentence you say no atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. I am not sure what you mean here, but I hear you to mean that atheists should not be forced to say the pledge of alegiance??
They are not forced to say it. Jehovah's witness also don't say the pledge. They aren't forced to say it. Maybe you mean something different???

The last I heard, atheists enjoy the same freedom to worship or not, that others enjoy, as well as those benefits and liberties that many other countries don't have, particularly the atheist ones.

The sad thing is that no one is enjoying religious freedom, some just happen to "match".
What do you mean? As of two weeks ago, the second leading Republican candidate was a Mormon. Your tax dollars went to create a Muslim Holiday stamp, sold and promoted by the US Postal Service. Many public schools around the nation have Muslim awareness month, and Christian programs for students, Bible studies after school, prayer before school on school grounds. The highest population of self-proclaimed witches, warlocks and covens is in Salem, Mass. There are all Muslim schools across the US and even the US government pays so that Muslims in the Military can now have separate mosques, because the place of worship shared by Jews, Catholics, Mormons and Christians is "defiled".
I read recently that atheists make up somewhere in the range of 6%-10% of the entire US Population, maybe more, and Evangelical Conservatives (not all Christians) make up 35% or more of the Republican Party. Perhaps no other country in the world enjoys so much religious freedom and diversity as the US.

You should spend some time living in central Europe, where the scars of Communism affect everything from Kentucky Fried Chicken, to the Post office. What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

Cordially,

SA

[Beto]

In regard to your earlier question, I would be fine with one nation under the gods, if that meant that you could be an atheist, and I could worship the Creator God, Yahweh, and Romney could worship the different god that he does, and the muslim could worship Allah. In other words, while there was no ambiguity in the founding Fathers' minds if the God they mentioned was Vishnu or Zoastar, they wanted people to have the right to worship whoever or however they pleased.

What the founding fathers wanted is irrelevant here, we're discussing how things are. The pledge implicitly has you claim that one god exists. It doesn't contemplate the chance of no gods or multiple gods existing. Like I said, I think you feel fine because it matches your beliefs. Just because you interpret "under the gods" the way you say you do, that doesn't mean every Christian would, or should, tolerate such a pledge, and I bet they would rather have no pledge with religious connotation than one that goes against their convictions, which is the way it should be.

What do you mean? The first commandment is about not having any other Gods before/beside Yahweh. That is not in the pledge. I am not following you...

"Under the gods" can imply that more than one exist. It doesn't matter how you interpret it... it can be interpreted that way, and it would violate some personal convictions in the same way that "Under God" does.

Also, In the second sentence you say no atheist should be forced to go against his personal convictions. I am not sure what you mean here, but I hear you to mean that atheists should not be forced to say the pledge of alegiance?? Smile
They are not forced to say it. Jehovah's witness also don't say the pledge. They aren't forced to say it. Maybe you mean something different???

We must live in different worlds. You're telling me that someone who refuses to say the pledge for being an atheist won't be denied opportunities and labeled "unpatriotic"? Of course I'm not saying people have guns held against their heads. Obama had to take s*** because he wouldn't wear a frickin' flag in his lapel, never mind refusing to say the pledge.

The last I heard, atheists enjoy the same freedom to worship or not, that others enjoy, as well as those benefits and liberties that many other countries don't have, particularly the atheist ones.

You're completely missing the point of the thread. The issue isn't whether or not people enjoy the freedom to worship or to not worship. The issue is about having a pledge of allegiance with religious implications that not everyone agrees with, in such a way that atheists and some theists can't enjoy the satisfaction of pledging their allegiance to their nation without betraying their principles in the process.

As of two weeks ago, the second leading Republican candidate was a Mormon. Your tax dollars went to create a Muslim Holiday stamp, sold and promoted by the US Postal Service.

I'm European. I'm not arguing for myself.

Many public schools around the nation have Muslim awareness month, and Christian programs for students, Bible studies after school, prayer before school on school grounds. The highest population of self-proclaimed witches, warlocks and covens is in Salem, Mass. There are all Muslim schools across the US and even the US government pays so that Muslims in the Military can now have separate mosques, because the place of worship shared by Jews, Catholics, Mormons and Christians is "defiled".
I read recently that atheists make up somewhere in the range of 6%-10% of the entire US Population, maybe more, and Evangelical Conservatives (not all Christians) make up 35% or more of the Republican Party. Perhaps no other country in the world enjoys so much religious freedom and diversity as the US.

You should spend some time living in central Europe, where the scars of Communism affect everything from Kentucky Fried Chicken, to the Post office. What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

Like I mentioned above, I think you're missing the point of the thread.

[OpenedUp]

You should spend some time living in central Europe, where the scars of Communism affect everything from Kentucky Fried Chicken, to the Post office. What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

Cordially,

SA

You should go back to America in the 1950s where the scares of Communism caused people to make the connection between communism and godless immorality. Where, in reaction, the masses began to fear and distrust those without a God and thus without a "moral system". Where the US government incorporated "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and added "In God We Trust" to US dollars, thus leaving permanent scars on the secular face of the government.

[McCulloch]

What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

For the record, I believe that tolerance and freedom are more evident in Canada than the USA. We let same sex couples get married. We avoided the excesses of MaCarthyism by allowing the Communist Parties (there are two of them in Canada) to operate. Like all political parties, they are not allowed to receive funds from outside the country and they cannot encourage armed rebellion. Their candidates seldom get more than a handful of votes but they have absolutely nothing to complain about wrt unfair treatment. They are and never have been a threat to our democracy.

[Salt Agent]

You should spend some time living in central Europe, where the scars of Communism affect everything from Kentucky Fried Chicken, to the Post office. What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

Cordially,

SA

You should go back to America in the 1950s where the scares of Communism caused people to make the connection between communism and godless immorality. Where, in reaction, the masses began to fear and distrust those without a God and thus without a "moral system". Where the US government incorporated "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and added "In God We Trust" to US dollars, thus leaving permanent scars on the secular face of the government.

Where the US government incorporated "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and added "In God We Trust" to US dollars, thus leaving permanent scars on the secular face of the government.

You should go back and check your history, OU. Would that be the secular Government that has Bible quotes all over the walls of Congress, and the Capital Building, and has prayers to God from Christians in China on the steps of the Washington monument, or
was it that secular government that began its senate sessions --Before the 1940's with Prayer, did until the 90's if not still today????

Or maybe it was the secular government you are talking about that during the civil war, many churches were used as hospitals for the wounded, and services were stopped but the president of that "secular government" said "This action was taken without my consent, and I hereby countermand the order. The churches are needed as never before for divine services-" Abraham Lincoln.

Or maybe it was the secular government who for decades [before McCarthy or Communism] used the Bible in school, in the Daniel Webster's dictionary, and in the McGuffey's readers around the nation, and had prayer in schools.

Oh, or maybe the "Secular government"one where people put their hands on the Communist Manifesto, or was it the Koran,??? no, the Bible, to swear to tell the truth in court.

I respect your right to believe what ever you like, in aliens, or the Easter Bunny, but because you don't like or agree with Judeo Christian elements all through the history of the Government, doesn't mean that they weren't there, or still aren't.

Salt Agent

[Beto]

What about the pledge, Salt Agent? Do you remain unconvinced that "Under God" violates the "religious freedom" of some people? Like I mention in post 24 (which you may have missed) it's not only atheists that resent having their patriotism questioned over a pledge with religious implications that violates their personal convictions. You must not presume everyone interprets, or should interpret, the pledge like you do.

[OpenedUp]

You should spend some time living in central Europe, where the scars of Communism affect everything from Kentucky Fried Chicken, to the Post office. What country can you name that has more religious tolerance and freedom than the US, and Canada?

Cordially,

SA

You should go back to America in the 1950s where the scares of Communism caused people to make the connection between communism and godless immorality. Where, in reaction, the masses began to fear and distrust those without a God and thus without a "moral system". Where the US government incorporated "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and added "In God We Trust" to US dollars, thus leaving permanent scars on the secular face of the government.

Where the US government incorporated "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and added "In God We Trust" to US dollars, thus leaving permanent scars on the secular face of the government.

You should go back and check your history, OU. Would that be the secular Government that has Bible quotes all over the walls of Congress, and the Capital Building, and has prayers to God from Christians in China on the steps of the Washington monument, or
was it that secular government that began its senate sessions --Before the 1940's with Prayer, did until the 90's if not still today????

Or maybe it was the secular government you are talking about that during the civil war, many churches were used as hospitals for the wounded, and services were stopped but the president of that "secular government" said "This action was taken without my consent, and I hereby countermand the order. The churches are needed as never before for divine services-" Abraham Lincoln.

Or maybe it was the secular government who for decades [before McCarthy or Communism] used the Bible in school, in the Daniel Webster's dictionary, and in the McGuffey's readers around the nation, and had prayer in schools.

Oh, or maybe the "Secular government"one where people put their hands on the Communist Manifesto, or was it the Koran,??? no, the Bible, to swear to tell the truth in court.

I respect your right to believe what ever you like, in aliens, or the Easter Bunny, but because you don't like or agree with Judeo Christian elements all through the history of the Government, doesn't mean that they weren't there, or still aren't.

Salt Agent

I never claimed that none of this occured. But I still hold that our government is a SECULAR government. Luckily, we have corrected many of the things you have mentioned here. Just one step closer

[Negachrist]

"One Nation, Under God"

Which God? Sometimes I think it's Shiva...