In the later years of my Christianity I started to think that maybe Heaven was simply too good to be true. But I found it interesting that some people saw eternal life as a curse rather than a blessing. I guess I can see the point for both arguments.
I’m reminded of one of Douglas Adam’s characters; Marvin the Paranoid Android in "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I can see now that Adams included this character as a bit of a dig at the concept of eternal life. That it was more of a curse. Marvin claims to be 10 times older than the universe due to regular time travel. He now knows everything there is to know and sees life as an incredible bore and everything seems menial to him. Nothing excites him. I wonder if it will become like that for us after a few million years in Heaven. How exciting will Heaven be once we know everything there is to know and there is no mystery left in it?
An extract of the story has Marvin talking about the sheer boredom of his life where for a small portion of his life he was a parking attendant at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe:
"The first ten million years were the worst. And the second ten million years, they were the worst too. The third ten million years I didn't enjoy at all. After that I went into sort of a decline"
Another interesting aspect of Marvin’s character is that because he is a robot, he will only ever do good. Which brings another interesting question of how God will ensure there is no sin in Heaven. Perhaps we will all be like Marvin? Programmed to only ever do good, with no real urges to sin. No real free will? But that’s probably another topic for another time.
So:
Is Eternal life in Heaven a curse or a blessing? Why?
What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do? If there is a finite number, just how often will we be able to do them before we get bored?
Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?
And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?
Eternal life - A curse or a blessing?
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OnceConvinced
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Eternal life - A curse or a blessing?
Post #1Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
Post #21
Well stated QED!
I feel sorry for the young Muslim whom seems to have been washed of the highest qualities humans may possess. However, when he quoted the Quran in regard to this world being illusory, I do not believe that he understands this as an expression of Gnostic philosophy. Much of the early parts of the Quran convey a Gnostic philosophy like that of the Gospels (especially the Gospel of John - of course, as well as the uncanonized Gospels such as the Gospels of Philip, Thomas, and Mary Magadalene, to name a few).
It is sad to see this kind of arbitrary intolerance amongst fundamental religious groups, and to see it in a young man at the age of 19 is daunting to one's hope for the future generations. As I've said many times, we musn't journey too far "left" or "right," or we shall lose sight of where the middle is. I feel this is often the problem. People who hate the "left" move to the far "right," and those who detest the extreme "right" swing all the way to the "left." This is not always the case, but I find it to be common much of the time.
I also have 3 children and have always encouraged them to be individuals and think for themselves. Yes, I guide them with the knowledge and wisdom I have, and make a great effort to be a good role-model; however, I never tell them that they are not loved, or will not be loved for disagreeing with my opinons and perspective on life. We all come to know wisdom in our own way and time - this is the individual human experience. If we as humans cannot learn from or appreciate another's life experience, how will hamanity evolve in the future? In my opinon, if this is the fundamental religious view of society, then we will not!
In the Spirit of Truth and Gnosis - M
I feel sorry for the young Muslim whom seems to have been washed of the highest qualities humans may possess. However, when he quoted the Quran in regard to this world being illusory, I do not believe that he understands this as an expression of Gnostic philosophy. Much of the early parts of the Quran convey a Gnostic philosophy like that of the Gospels (especially the Gospel of John - of course, as well as the uncanonized Gospels such as the Gospels of Philip, Thomas, and Mary Magadalene, to name a few).
It is sad to see this kind of arbitrary intolerance amongst fundamental religious groups, and to see it in a young man at the age of 19 is daunting to one's hope for the future generations. As I've said many times, we musn't journey too far "left" or "right," or we shall lose sight of where the middle is. I feel this is often the problem. People who hate the "left" move to the far "right," and those who detest the extreme "right" swing all the way to the "left." This is not always the case, but I find it to be common much of the time.
I also have 3 children and have always encouraged them to be individuals and think for themselves. Yes, I guide them with the knowledge and wisdom I have, and make a great effort to be a good role-model; however, I never tell them that they are not loved, or will not be loved for disagreeing with my opinons and perspective on life. We all come to know wisdom in our own way and time - this is the individual human experience. If we as humans cannot learn from or appreciate another's life experience, how will hamanity evolve in the future? In my opinon, if this is the fundamental religious view of society, then we will not!
In the Spirit of Truth and Gnosis - M
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Zzyzx
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Post #22
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What is the bible instruction to KILL your brother, friend or wife if they try to convince you to worship a different god?
Doesn't Christianity teach a similar thing – but worse?OnceConvinced wrote:WHAT? Are you suggesting that if a loved one of yours rejects Allah you will cease to love them? What sort of person are you? What sort of religion is Islam if you automatically despise your most loved family members just because they don't follow your religion? What about your own children for Allah's sake?
My God. I never realised that Islam was as bad as this. If you lose your love for someone because of this, it can't have been real love in the first place. You don't stop loving someone because of something like that.
What is the bible instruction to KILL your brother, friend or wife if they try to convince you to worship a different god?
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Zzyzx
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Post #23
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One of my primary objections to all the major brands of organized, commercial religion is that they usually promote divisiveness and elitism. "My god is bigger than your god", "Your holy book is fake", "I am better than you", "Anyone who doesn't worship as I do is going to hell", "You are a heathen and I am 'saved'", etc.
I see no advantage for society in either divisiveness or elitism – but do understand the potential for self-serving agendas by clergy seeking to compete with other religions (and to manufacture apparent product differentiation and a "need" for religious services).
Promoting distrust or hate between people is NOT a desirable objective in my opinion. Humans would benefit by learning to live together cooperatively and peacefully rather than competitively and with hostility. Human history is a tragedy of conflict, destruction and warfare brought about by divisive factors – often involving religion.
One of my primary objections to all the major brands of organized, commercial religion is that they usually promote divisiveness and elitism. "My god is bigger than your god", "Your holy book is fake", "I am better than you", "Anyone who doesn't worship as I do is going to hell", "You are a heathen and I am 'saved'", etc.
I see no advantage for society in either divisiveness or elitism – but do understand the potential for self-serving agendas by clergy seeking to compete with other religions (and to manufacture apparent product differentiation and a "need" for religious services).
Promoting distrust or hate between people is NOT a desirable objective in my opinion. Humans would benefit by learning to live together cooperatively and peacefully rather than competitively and with hostility. Human history is a tragedy of conflict, destruction and warfare brought about by divisive factors – often involving religion.
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Thought Criminal
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Post #24
It never ceases to amaze me just how easily religionists see through the idiocies and errors of every religion other than their own. When the Christian and the Muslim debate, they make both religions look ridiculous, and do the same for themselves.Zzyzx wrote:.
One of my primary objections to all the major brands of organized, commercial religion is that they usually promote divisiveness and elitism. "My god is bigger than your god", "Your holy book is fake", "I am better than you", "Anyone who doesn't worship as I do is going to hell", "You are a heathen and I am 'saved'", etc.
I see no advantage for society in either divisiveness or elitism – but do understand the potential for self-serving agendas by clergy seeking to compete with other religions (and to manufacture apparent product differentiation and a "need" for religious services).
Promoting distrust or hate between people is NOT a desirable objective in my opinion. Humans would benefit by learning to live together cooperatively and peacefully rather than competitively and with hostility. Human history is a tragedy of conflict, destruction and warfare brought about by divisive factors – often involving religion.
TC
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OnceConvinced
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Post #25
I'm not sure if that's the case or not. I've never come across that scripture, but no surprises there as it would be one that Christians avoid like the plague.Zzyzx wrote:.Doesn't Christianity teach a similar thing – but worse?OnceConvinced wrote:WHAT? Are you suggesting that if a loved one of yours rejects Allah you will cease to love them? What sort of person are you? What sort of religion is Islam if you automatically despise your most loved family members just because they don't follow your religion? What about your own children for Allah's sake?
My God. I never realised that Islam was as bad as this. If you lose your love for someone because of this, it can't have been real love in the first place. You don't stop loving someone because of something like that.
What is the bible instruction to KILL your brother, friend or wife if they try to convince you to worship a different god?
However I just can't imagine a Christian ceasing to love their child just because they didn't follow the faith. I guess there may be Christians who are like that, but IMO there would be something psychologically wrong with them. Either that or their child has done some terrible things to them personally.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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Zzyzx
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Post #26
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Isn't this passage atrocious? It cannot be justified or explained away and cannot be claimed to be "taken out of context". It is clear-cut instruction to kill anyone who attempts to "turn you away from the lord". That is the ethical standard promoted by the bible – and "instructions for living".
There is no need to try the "things were different then" smoke screen. The instruction to kill was just as wrong then as now.
Whether the rejection is "ceasing love" or not may be debatable, but the rejection can be very complete and permanent.
I didn't really expect any of the "Christian Defenders" to speak up and acknowledge the passage.OnceConvinced wrote:I'm not sure if that's the case or not. I've never come across that scripture, but no surprises there as it would be one that Christians avoid like the plague.Zzyzx wrote:Doesn't Christianity teach a similar thing – but worse?OnceConvinced wrote:WHAT? Are you suggesting that if a loved one of yours rejects Allah you will cease to love them? What sort of person are you? What sort of religion is Islam if you automatically despise your most loved family members just because they don't follow your religion? What about your own children for Allah's sake?
My God. I never realised that Islam was as bad as this. If you lose your love for someone because of this, it can't have been real love in the first place. You don't stop loving someone because of something like that.
What is the bible instruction to KILL your brother, friend or wife if they try to convince you to worship a different god?
So much for "Atheists" knowing less about the bible than Christians.Deuteronomy 13.6 If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or* your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’, whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, 8you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. 9But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness.
Isn't this passage atrocious? It cannot be justified or explained away and cannot be claimed to be "taken out of context". It is clear-cut instruction to kill anyone who attempts to "turn you away from the lord". That is the ethical standard promoted by the bible – and "instructions for living".
There is no need to try the "things were different then" smoke screen. The instruction to kill was just as wrong then as now.
I have two personal experiences with parents "ceasing to love" (or rejecting completely) a child because they didn't follow the faith. My wife was rejected by her father and banned from contacting the family because she rejected the FLDS religion. My first wife was rejected by her family because she married "out of the church" (to an "infidel").OnceConvinced wrote:However I just can't imagine a Christian ceasing to love their child just because they didn't follow the faith.
I agree. Obsession with religion to the extent of rejecting children over differences in worship preferences is indication, in my opinion, that there is "something psychologically wrong with them". BUT, I do not think that is uncommon among those who make religion the center of their life.OnceConvinced wrote:I guess there may be Christians who are like that, but IMO there would be something psychologically wrong with them.
Whether the rejection is "ceasing love" or not may be debatable, but the rejection can be very complete and permanent.
The "terrible thing" in both cases above was to not worship the right gods in the right way.OnceConvinced wrote:Either that or their child has done some terrible things to them personally.
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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GospelJohn
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Post #27
OnceConvinced: “How exciting will Heaven be once we know everything there is to know and there is no mystery left in it?�
GJ: If that were to happen, then I would guess that heaven would ultimately be very boring. Eternal boredom seems an ugly outcome for an omniscient, omnipotent God to have in mind in creating us all. If God can do anything He desires, then why not create life around Him that will flourish and be happy?
To do that would require an “open system� whereby we have infinite choices and experiences throughout eternity. That means there are an infinite number of souls spread throughout an infinite number of dimensions/universes/experiences where we use our free will to create happiness (or sadness) for ourselves. Eventually we will learn that only making choices out of love results in our greatest happiness.
OnceConvinced: “Perhaps we will all be like Marvin? [Robot in Douglas Adams’ book] Programmed to only ever do good, with no real urges to sin. No real free will? But that’s probably another topic for another time.
GJ: An interesting topic as well. It would only make sense to me that heaven and hell are “states of mind� where two people can stand in the same situation and one believes they are in heaven when the other sees it as hell. That also means that neither is a permanent condition if we have free will forever. We could attain heaven, and again choose selfishly and have to learn to make loving choices all over again to get out of hell.
OnceConvinced: “So: Is Eternal life in Heaven a curse or a blessing? Why?�
GJ: I put “neither� in the survey because it is up to us to make of life what we will. IMO God prefers that we all make loving choices where everyone benefits. If we choose otherwise, we will never be truly happy until we learn that lesson.
OnceConvinced: “What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do?�
GJ: Everything about God points to infinity. Where is the end to space, numbers, music or love? Mathematics says that there are an infinite number of dimensions we can create on paper, so why would that not be the case in real life? Regarding what we would do for eternity, IMO we were created to be co-creators and companions with God. Running the universes is a Family Business, and we can be involved at whatever level we desire. That includes participation (creation) from the cosmic to the microscopic levels throughout infinite experiences, universes and dimensions.
OnceConvinced: “Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?�
GJ: You did not ask, Why doesn’t God get bored?� If God is truly omniscient and knows everything that will occur, then is not His entire existence one of complete boredom? IMO no. That’s why He created us as His companions and co-creators. We offer God the same blessing our own children offer us. That is the gift of seeing the world anew from their perspective. How many “boring things� do we joyously participate in with our children but no longer see them as boring because of the joy they experience? Now imagine God seeing His creation through an infinite number of “eyes� from all His children? It’s no wonder He created us if His joy is multiplied by an infinite factor of what joy we receive from our relatively few children.
OnceConvinced: “And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?�
GJ: Another great question! The only answer for me again is that God would not have created such an ugly “system� where the outcome is not what He wants. If God is truly unwilling that any soul should perish, then how can He get what He wants when He gave us the free will to choose against Him and His loving ways? The answer IMO is that we were created in His image and so we ultimately are at our happiest when we make choices in accord with His loving ways.
How long can we resist learning that great lesson? How long can we resist the unconditional love of our Father? No matter how long it takes, that finite period will be a mere blink compared to the rest of eternity where we enjoy the perfection of our experiences together. All that is required to attain that wonderful outcome for us all is for God to have perfect patience and unconditional love for His children. That is indeed the God most often described by Jesus in the Bible.
GJ: If that were to happen, then I would guess that heaven would ultimately be very boring. Eternal boredom seems an ugly outcome for an omniscient, omnipotent God to have in mind in creating us all. If God can do anything He desires, then why not create life around Him that will flourish and be happy?
To do that would require an “open system� whereby we have infinite choices and experiences throughout eternity. That means there are an infinite number of souls spread throughout an infinite number of dimensions/universes/experiences where we use our free will to create happiness (or sadness) for ourselves. Eventually we will learn that only making choices out of love results in our greatest happiness.
OnceConvinced: “Perhaps we will all be like Marvin? [Robot in Douglas Adams’ book] Programmed to only ever do good, with no real urges to sin. No real free will? But that’s probably another topic for another time.
GJ: An interesting topic as well. It would only make sense to me that heaven and hell are “states of mind� where two people can stand in the same situation and one believes they are in heaven when the other sees it as hell. That also means that neither is a permanent condition if we have free will forever. We could attain heaven, and again choose selfishly and have to learn to make loving choices all over again to get out of hell.
OnceConvinced: “So: Is Eternal life in Heaven a curse or a blessing? Why?�
GJ: I put “neither� in the survey because it is up to us to make of life what we will. IMO God prefers that we all make loving choices where everyone benefits. If we choose otherwise, we will never be truly happy until we learn that lesson.
OnceConvinced: “What do you think we will do in Heaven? Can there be an infinite number of things to do?�
GJ: Everything about God points to infinity. Where is the end to space, numbers, music or love? Mathematics says that there are an infinite number of dimensions we can create on paper, so why would that not be the case in real life? Regarding what we would do for eternity, IMO we were created to be co-creators and companions with God. Running the universes is a Family Business, and we can be involved at whatever level we desire. That includes participation (creation) from the cosmic to the microscopic levels throughout infinite experiences, universes and dimensions.
OnceConvinced: “Assuming that in Heaven we will learn everything there is to know about the universe and over time there will be no mystery left, will life continue to be exciting?�
GJ: You did not ask, Why doesn’t God get bored?� If God is truly omniscient and knows everything that will occur, then is not His entire existence one of complete boredom? IMO no. That’s why He created us as His companions and co-creators. We offer God the same blessing our own children offer us. That is the gift of seeing the world anew from their perspective. How many “boring things� do we joyously participate in with our children but no longer see them as boring because of the joy they experience? Now imagine God seeing His creation through an infinite number of “eyes� from all His children? It’s no wonder He created us if His joy is multiplied by an infinite factor of what joy we receive from our relatively few children.
OnceConvinced: “And for those who believe Hell to be a place of eternal torment. How will we enjoy Heaven knowing that our loved ones (perhaps our children) are at the same time being tortured in the pits of Hell?�
GJ: Another great question! The only answer for me again is that God would not have created such an ugly “system� where the outcome is not what He wants. If God is truly unwilling that any soul should perish, then how can He get what He wants when He gave us the free will to choose against Him and His loving ways? The answer IMO is that we were created in His image and so we ultimately are at our happiest when we make choices in accord with His loving ways.
How long can we resist learning that great lesson? How long can we resist the unconditional love of our Father? No matter how long it takes, that finite period will be a mere blink compared to the rest of eternity where we enjoy the perfection of our experiences together. All that is required to attain that wonderful outcome for us all is for God to have perfect patience and unconditional love for His children. That is indeed the God most often described by Jesus in the Bible.
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OnceConvinced
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Post #28
Well judging by God's inactivity in this world today, it could be that he got bored with us a long time ago and has moved on to more fun and exciting things.GospelJohn wrote: GJ: You did not ask, Why doesn’t God get bored?� If God is truly omniscient and knows everything that will occur, then is not His entire existence one of complete boredom? IMO no.
It also brings up more questions. Like does God really know everything? Is he really omniscient? And also how long has God been around? It may be that he hasn't been around long enough to get bored yet.
I should imagine it would be a lot of fun being a God and creating your own planet and people. Still eternity is an unfathomably long amount of time. I still wonder if maybe even a zillion years down the track those things we once enjoyed might become a very tedious chore.That’s why He created us as His companions and co-creators. We offer God the same blessing our own children offer us. That is the gift of seeing the world anew from their perspective. How many “boring things� do we joyously participate in with our children but no longer see them as boring because of the joy they experience? Now imagine God seeing His creation through an infinite number of “eyes� from all His children? It’s no wonder He created us if His joy is multiplied by an infinite factor of what joy we receive from our relatively few children.
I don't know. Maybe after a few billion years of not doing that thing, you might look forward to doing it again. But then I don't think it would have quite the same appeal. I can get a new video game. Spend hours and hours playing it. Continue to play it over a period of weeks, maybe months then get bored with it and cast it aside. A few years later I may pick it up again and think "hey, I wouldn't mind playing that again" But although I may spend many more days playing it, it will never have the same appeal as it did the first time I played it. The mystery just isn't there any more and I know what's going to happen. So after a few billion years of picking up that game from time to time, I'm pretty confident there will come a time when I just won't want to play it ever again.
As for knowing the future, I certainly wouldn't want that ability if I was to become a God. That would make things even more uninteresting. No surprises? No thanks.
Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
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GospelJohn
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Post #29
OnceConvinced: "So after a few billion years of picking up that game from time to time, I'm pretty confident there will come a time when I just won't want to play it ever again."
GJ: That's why I believe that our experiences will always be open-ended with no repeats if we don't care to. Math shows us that we can have an infinite number of dimensions on paper, so why not in reality? Given the experiencial differences we can imagine between the second and third dimensions, imagine what varieties lie ahead for us, and they continue without end!
OnceConvinced: "As for knowing the future, I certainly wouldn't want that ability if I was to become a God. That would make things even more uninteresting. No surprises? No thanks."
GJ: I imagine that God knows everything that can happen, but having given us free will He does not know the order the infinite number of choices we each have will come together. If a video game keeps changing its rules and the nature of each character, the dynamics of infinite change may well keep such a game from getting boring in those infinite dimensions. And then there's the excitement of "seeing His Creation through the eyes of His beloved children."
GJ: That's why I believe that our experiences will always be open-ended with no repeats if we don't care to. Math shows us that we can have an infinite number of dimensions on paper, so why not in reality? Given the experiencial differences we can imagine between the second and third dimensions, imagine what varieties lie ahead for us, and they continue without end!
OnceConvinced: "As for knowing the future, I certainly wouldn't want that ability if I was to become a God. That would make things even more uninteresting. No surprises? No thanks."
GJ: I imagine that God knows everything that can happen, but having given us free will He does not know the order the infinite number of choices we each have will come together. If a video game keeps changing its rules and the nature of each character, the dynamics of infinite change may well keep such a game from getting boring in those infinite dimensions. And then there's the excitement of "seeing His Creation through the eyes of His beloved children."
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Wellington
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Post #30
Imagine a god that is not all knowing?GospelJohn wrote:
GJ: I imagine that God knows everything that can happen, but having given us free will He does not know the order the infinite number of choices we each have will come together.
