Is altruism impossible?

[Evales]

Is it possible?

[OnceConvinced]

How about this scenario.

Travelling to home each night from work I take a particular route. I found that a work colleague, someone I bearly know lives on that route but catches two buses to get there. It was no problem for me to drop him off each night, so I made the offer. I did not consider him a friend at the time, nor did I feel any sense of satisfaction for doing it. It really was no big deal. I also did not do it to gain a friend. Nor did I ask for any money, nor do I expect any. I simply do it because of empathy - I have been in that situation myself and I know how much time I wasted sitting around waiting for buses and sitting in buses.

So is this selfish?

[Thought Criminal]

How about this scenario.

Travelling to home each night from work I take a particular route. I found that a work colleague, someone I bearly know lives on that route but catches two buses to get there. It was no problem for me to drop him off each night, so I made the offer. I did not consider him a friend at the time, nor did I feel any sense of satisfaction for doing it. It really was no big deal. I also did not do it to gain a friend. Nor did I ask for any money, nor do I expect any. I simply do it because of empathy - I have been in that situation myself and I know how much time I wasted sitting around waiting for buses and sitting in buses.

So is this selfish?

Not in any meaningful sense of the word, no.

TC

[byofrcs]

How about this scenario.

Travelling to home each night from work I take a particular route. I found that a work colleague, someone I bearly know lives on that route but catches two buses to get there. It was no problem for me to drop him off each night, so I made the offer. I did not consider him a friend at the time, nor did I feel any sense of satisfaction for doing it. It really was no big deal. I also did not do it to gain a friend. Nor did I ask for any money, nor do I expect any. I simply do it because of empathy - I have been in that situation myself and I know how much time I wasted sitting around waiting for buses and sitting in buses.

So is this selfish?

I read on the bus. If I was picked up then it would probably be seen as selfish (or rude) if I read in your car (The exception is when its a limo then its OK to read).

Is it therefore selfish that I want to read on the bus and so don't take up your offer ? Selfish is a hard concept to pin down.

[justifyothers]

Maybe we should look at selfishness in terms of motivation.

If a good deed is done because it will make me feel good, this could be considered selfish. Yes, the good still gets done, but my motivation was myself first.

If a good deed is done for the actual desire to help another -before I consider how it may benefit me, then this could be considered unslefish. Some of our purest altruistic acts are knee-jerk reactions to another's need.

[Sjoerd]

Maybe we should look at selfishness in terms of motivation.

If a good deed is done because it will make me feel good, this could be considered selfish. Yes, the good still gets done, but my motivation was myself first.

If a good deed is done for the actual desire to help another -before I consider how it may benefit me, then this could be considered unslefish. Some of our purest altruistic acts are knee-jerk reactions to another's need.

Indulging your desire to help another makes you feel good, that's the problem.

[justifyothers]

Maybe we should look at selfishness in terms of motivation.

If a good deed is done because it will make me feel good, this could be considered selfish. Yes, the good still gets done, but my motivation was myself first.

If a good deed is done for the actual desire to help another -before I consider how it may benefit me, then this could be considered unslefish. Some of our purest altruistic acts are knee-jerk reactions to another's need.

Indulging your desire to help another makes you feel good, that's the problem.

Indulging your desire to help another makes it possible.

There are cases in which people risk personal harm to help another. This transcends the 'feel good' theory.

[Sjoerd]

Indulging your desire to help another makes it possible.

There are cases in which people risk personal harm to help another. This transcends the 'feel good' theory.

Maybe this is a bit of masochism, but risking harm to help another could make me feel good too. At least, very righteous and proud of myself. And choosing to refrain from an action is also a choice. I could feel very bad if I would refrain from some altruistic actions: lose a lot of self-respect and self-esteem.

I think that we need to be critical of hypotheses on altruism that are too complex in terms of Theory of Mind. Animals participate in altruistic behaviour too. There is this story (from a professor of animal behaviour) of a bonobo who gave his life trying to save a young. The young was drowning, and the bonobo couldn't swim but he jumped in anyway.

[justifyothers]

Indulging your desire to help another makes it possible.

There are cases in which people risk personal harm to help another. This transcends the 'feel good' theory.

Maybe this is a bit of masochism, but risking harm to help another could make me feel good too. At least, very righteous and proud of myself. And choosing to refrain from an action is also a choice. I could feel very bad if I would refrain from some altruistic actions: lose a lot of self-respect and self-esteem.

It's mostly just honest.
But it does assume you'll have time to reflect on all these thoughts before you decide.

I think that we need to be critical of hypotheses on altruism that are too complex in terms of Theory of Mind. Animals participate in altruistic behaviour too. There is this story (from a professor of animal behaviour) of a bonobo who gave his life trying to save a young. The young was drowning, and the bonobo couldn't swim but he jumped in anyway.

I know what you're saying. I've heard these same type of stories from credible sources, and I believe them. However, we're never going to know what that bonobo (whatever that is) actually thought about prior to the act of jumping in. I know a strong survival instinct for the group is usually used to explain acts like this. Are you saying it's more than that or that no true act of altruism is possible?

[Sjoerd]

It's mostly just honest.

Thanks

But it does assume you'll have time to reflect on all these thoughts before you decide.

True. Let's hope that I have done all the thinking now and that when I decide, I will do the right thing automatically

I think that we need to be critical of hypotheses on altruism that are too complex in terms of Theory of Mind. Animals participate in altruistic behaviour too. There is this story (from a professor of animal behaviour) of a bonobo who gave his life trying to save a young. The young was drowning, and the bonobo couldn't swim but he jumped in anyway.

I know what you're saying. I've heard these same type of stories from credible sources, and I believe them. However, we're never going to know what that bonobo (whatever that is) actually thought about prior to the act of jumping in. I know a strong survival instinct for the group is usually used to explain acts like this. Are you saying it's more than that or that no true act of altruism is possible?

I mean that I believe it to be dangerous to discriminate between "selfish" feel-good altruism, based on instinct, and "genuine" altruism, based on morality. The bonobo's altruism is as genuine as it can be (he gave his life), still I would hesitate to assign human morality to an animal. I would say that "because it feels good" is enough reason for any altruistic action. You can then ask "why does it feel good?" and obtain reasons such as basic social behaviour, evolutionary instincts and/or higher morality.

bonobo (whatever that is)

Are you sure that you want to know? They are held in very few zoos not to offend the more sensitive part of the public.

[justifyothers]

True. Let's hope that I have done all the thinking now and that when I decide, I will do the right thing automatically

Same here, but there's always that knee-jerk thing

I mean that I believe it to be dangerous to discriminate between "selfish" feel-good altruism, based on instinct, and "genuine" altruism, based on morality. The bonobo's altruism is as genuine as it can be (he gave his life), still I would hesitate to assign human morality to an animal. I would say that "because it feels good" is enough reason for any altruistic action. You can then ask "why does it feel good?" and obtain reasons such as basic social behaviour, evolutionary instincts and/or higher morality.

Couldn't agree more (how refreshing)

bonobo (whatever that is)

Are you sure that you want to know? They are held in very few zoos not to offend the more sensitive part of the public.

Well, now I must know!! Haven't looked it up - I'm assuming it's some kind of crazy monkey