Let's cut to the chase. Do you have any evidence?

[no evidence no belief]

I feel like we've been beating around the bush for... 6000 years!

Can you please either provide some evidence for your supernatural beliefs, or admit that you have no evidence?

If you believe there once was a talking donkey (Numbers 22) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe there once was a zombie invasion in Jerusalem (Mat 27) could you please provide evidence?

If you believe in the flying horse (Islam) could you please provide evidence?

Walking on water, virgin births, radioactive spiders who give you superpowers, turning water into wine, turning iron into gold, demons, goblins, ghosts, hobbits, elves, angels, unicorns and Santa.

Can you PLEASE provide evidence?

[Sonofason]

Um, just a guess, Sonofason -- but by any chance, did you mean to write, "Well, of course I am not"? That would clear this up nicely.

By the way, I am not a "doctor" of anything. I was tempted to say "I just play one on the Internet," but that joke might have been misunderstood. I've never claimed to hold a doctorate.

Well, thanks for the heads up. It doesn't take much for people to be deceived and come to false conclusions. Nevertheless, I did mean what I said. I am quite qualified to determine what evidence is. I made no mistake in my comment that was directed to Goat. He does not understand what evidence is. He excludes every piece of evidence a Christian can put forth, and for what? To shut down the discussion? To win? No - personal testimony is evidence. The Bible and the words written in it are evidence. The Gospels are evidence. It's all evidence. And we all get to determine for ourselves whether or not the evidence has been convincing or not. Even my own personal experiences of God are evidence. If it is not evidence for you, it is nevertheless evidence for me. And then my testimony of my experience is evidence for you. And then you get to determine if my testimony is convincing or not. If not, so be it.

The Gospels fall under the category of religious dogma and propaganda. It is evidence, but it is not evidence of the validity of their claims. It is evidence of religious belief, not evidence of the validity of that belief.

It appears that your 'evidence' falls under the categories of religious dogma/propaganda/speculation, and subjective experience that you can not show anybody else.. nor can you explain WHY it's how you interpret it... or show how your experience can be independently verified.

Ask believers about the Holy Spirit. You will find that some believers have a very vague understanding of the Holy Spirit, if any understanding at all. I believe that you will find that these are the sort of Christians that "say" they are believers, but if you were to watch their lives, you would see very little evidence that they are Christians at all. Their lives would be not very different from any other person in the secular society. But then there are other Christians who will tell you exactly their experience of the Holy Spirit. And you will find that these Christians live a very different sort of life than the secularized Christians I first spoke of. These Christians actually read their Bibles. These Christians actually do desire to be more Christlike. And you will find that these Christians share remarkably similar experiences with regard to the Holy Spirit, and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ask them. Just go and ask them. Corroboration of a story is evidence that a story is true. Personal experiences can be verifiable, especially when others have the same kind of experience. Go ahead and ask.

[Artie]

And you will find that these Christians share remarkably similar experiences with regard to the Holy Spirit, and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ask them. Just go and ask them. Corroboration of a story is evidence that a story is true. Personal experiences can be verifiable, especially when others have the same kind of experience. Go ahead and ask.

So if I go and ask an alien abductee his experience would be a subjective experience but if I ask a thousand alien abductees then we have corroboration and that is supposed to be evidence that aliens are abducting people?

[Goat]

Um, just a guess, Sonofason -- but by any chance, did you mean to write, "Well, of course I am not"? That would clear this up nicely.

By the way, I am not a "doctor" of anything. I was tempted to say "I just play one on the Internet," but that joke might have been misunderstood. I've never claimed to hold a doctorate.

Well, thanks for the heads up. It doesn't take much for people to be deceived and come to false conclusions. Nevertheless, I did mean what I said. I am quite qualified to determine what evidence is. I made no mistake in my comment that was directed to Goat. He does not understand what evidence is. He excludes every piece of evidence a Christian can put forth, and for what? To shut down the discussion? To win? No - personal testimony is evidence. The Bible and the words written in it are evidence. The Gospels are evidence. It's all evidence. And we all get to determine for ourselves whether or not the evidence has been convincing or not. Even my own personal experiences of God are evidence. If it is not evidence for you, it is nevertheless evidence for me. And then my testimony of my experience is evidence for you. And then you get to determine if my testimony is convincing or not. If not, so be it.

The Gospels fall under the category of religious dogma and propaganda. It is evidence, but it is not evidence of the validity of their claims. It is evidence of religious belief, not evidence of the validity of that belief.

It appears that your 'evidence' falls under the categories of religious dogma/propaganda/speculation, and subjective experience that you can not show anybody else.. nor can you explain WHY it's how you interpret it... or show how your experience can be independently verified.

Ask believers about the Holy Spirit. You will find that some believers have a very vague understanding of the Holy Spirit, if any understanding at all. I believe that you will find that these are the sort of Christians that "say" they are believers, but if you were to watch their lives, you would see very little evidence that they are Christians at all. Their lives would be not very different from any other person in the secular society. But then there are other Christians who will tell you exactly their experience of the Holy Spirit. And you will find that these Christians live a very different sort of life than the secularized Christians I first spoke of. These Christians actually read their Bibles. These Christians actually do desire to be more Christlike. And you will find that these Christians share remarkably similar experiences with regard to the Holy Spirit, and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ask them. Just go and ask them. Corroboration of a story is evidence that a story is true. Personal experiences can be verifiable, especially when others have the same kind of experience. Go ahead and ask.

Is it?? Or , does it mean that people were taught the same things, and had their emotional experience interpretation guilded by social expectations? I see so much difference of opinion about what the 'Holy Spirit' says to people, the latter sounds much more reasonable.

Can you show this 'holy spirit' is not merely a social expectation imposed on an emotional experience?' It sounds like your claim is not supported.

[Sonofason]

And you will find that these Christians share remarkably similar experiences with regard to the Holy Spirit, and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ask them. Just go and ask them. Corroboration of a story is evidence that a story is true. Personal experiences can be verifiable, especially when others have the same kind of experience. Go ahead and ask.

So if I go and ask an alien abductee his experience would be a subjective experience but if I ask a thousand alien abductees then we have corroboration and that is supposed to be evidence that aliens are abducting people?

Even a single claim by one person claiming to have been abducted by aliens is evidence that aliens exist and abduct people. It is not perfect evidence by anyone's standards, except perhaps for the person making the claim. Two claims by two different people making the same claim is greater evidence, although again, it is not perfect evidence, except perhaps for the two people making the claims. The more people making the claim, the greater the evidence, however imperfect the evidence might seem to be to those who have not had the experience themselves. There could be other reasons for people sharing the same claim. That would have to be investigated. Perhaps it's a hoax of some sort. That would have to be investigated. Perhaps they all have a similar defect of the brain. That would have to be investigated. But until evidence is shown to be invalid, it is valid evidence.

[Artie]

[Replying to Sonofason]
So have you investigated these people who experience this Holy Spirit and ruled out all possible natural causes like cultural influences or defects of the brain?

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 2189 by Artie]

Honestly, I have to some extent. I can't say that I've had any of their brains scanned, but I have met quite a few of them, and have drawn my own conclusions. And from what I see, people who experience the Holy Spirit are always vested in Christ. And there is a wide range of people who experience the Holy Spirit seemingly ranging from the crazy to the most sane of individuals. It appears to me that sanity has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[assisigirl]

Hi Sonofason,

you seem to have had 'on site' experience with this phenomena. Receiving the Holy Spirit is such a vague and benign concept that I would have little difficulty with it. I can accept your stated truth, ie that it is visible and tangible.

My sceptical nature would find it difficult to distinguish this phenomena from something like for example 'plucking up courage' or 'feeling inspired' etc. In this context, I would see it as being a self induced calling up of resources, perhaps very natural and normal. Is it like that in your view .

[Sonofason]

Hi Sonofason,

you seem to have had 'on site' experience with this phenomena. Receiving the Holy Spirit is such a vague and benign concept that I would have little difficulty with it. I can accept your stated truth, ie that it is visible and tangible.

My sceptical nature would find it difficult to distinguish this phenomena from something like for example 'plucking up courage' or 'feeling inspired' etc. In this context, I would see it as being a self induced calling up of resources, perhaps very natural and normal. Is it like that in your view .

The Holy Spirit has never been visible to me. When the Holy Spirit is notably present in me, it does however induce a physical response in me that can be seen. Obviously, if there were no physical aspect to this, I doubt I'd feel it at all. Surely God can be present, while no one notices. God is Spirit. I'd place Him in the category of the supernatural, yet I believe He is quite natural.

The Holy Spirit has other names, The Spirit of Truth, The Comforter, The Spirit of God, The Holy Ghost, The Spirit of Jesus, and several others.

I mention these because these names have meaning and value to me. Jesus said,

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."
(John 14:15-18)

Jesus spoke of a Comforter that will abide with the believer forever. He promises to send this comforter to those who love and obey Him. And what I am saying is that when I first accepted Jesus Christ, I experienced something very new to me. Man I got the goosebumps all over, the hairs on my arms and head were standing up, and I felt this overwhelming sense of love pouring over me. Whenever I draw near to God, God's Spirit draws near to me, and I again get goosebumps all over, the hairs on my arms and head stand up, and I feel that same overwhelming sense of love pouring over me. I have on occasion been in such a mindful state towards God, that I bathed in the Holy Spirit for about 2 hours at a time. Have you ever gotten goosebumps for two hours straight? Not many people do. But many people when they experience the Holy Spirit do experience the sensations I've just spoken of.

I'd like to point something out. When you touch something, and you feel it, there are chemical and electrical impulses that follow pathways leading directly to the brain, where there are information receptors that process, somehow, those impulses to the extent that the brain determines that it has been touched. Without a brain, there are no sensations. Without a brain, there is no sight, no sense of hearing, no sense of touch. Everything we experience is truly experienced in the brain. And so it would not surprise me that there is some component of the brain that is capable of processing the touch of God. That is not to say that this particular component of the brain cannot process other sorts of stimuli, and give a similar sensation, but that there is a component to receive the touch of God. We all have it. But God doesn't touch everyone.

[Danmark]

Hi Sonofason,

you seem to have had 'on site' experience with this phenomena. Receiving the Holy Spirit is such a vague and benign concept that I would have little difficulty with it. I can accept your stated truth, ie that it is visible and tangible.

My sceptical nature would find it difficult to distinguish this phenomena from something like for example 'plucking up courage' or 'feeling inspired' etc. In this context, I would see it as being a self induced calling up of resources, perhaps very natural and normal. Is it like that in your view .

The Holy Spirit has never been visible to me. When the Holy Spirit is notably present in me, it does however induce a physical response in me that can be seen. . . .

Seen by whom? In addition to the standard reasons for suspecting that what you experience as the Holy Spirit, I see one HUGE argument that you are flat wrong.
You have talked about laughing at the idea that atheists are going to hell. I know many Christians who would say this is evidence you are definitely NOT guided by the Holy Spirit. The few Christians on the list who have responded, disagree with you. I have heard no one, whether Christian, theist, non theist, atheist, former Christian or anyone agree with your statement that it is appropriate to laugh at those who are going to 'hell' because they do not share your beliefs.

I grew up with an evangelical faith and in a Christian denomination that put great stock in the two fold of both salvation and 'sanctification;' that is, salvation by belief in Christ as God and sanctification: the infilling of the Holy Spirit. This is the holiness tradition that comes out of John Wesley Methodism as exemplified by the Nazarenes and Free Methodists, among others. Having spent 30 years in that tradition I can guarantee you that everyone I know from that tradition would suspect only a demon, not the Holy Spirit, would inspire glee or mirth at the prospect of a sinner going to hell.

[Sonofason]

[Replying to post 2193 by Danmark]

assisigirl wrote:

Hi Sonofason,

you seem to have had 'on site' experience with this phenomena. Receiving the Holy Spirit is such a vague and benign concept that I would have little difficulty with it. I can accept your stated truth, ie that it is visible and tangible.

My sceptical nature would find it difficult to distinguish this phenomena from something like for example 'plucking up courage' or 'feeling inspired' etc. In this context, I would see it as being a self induced calling up of resources, perhaps very natural and normal. Is it like that in your view .

As quoted by Danmark, Sonofason had written:

The Holy Spirit has never been visible to me. When the Holy Spirit is notably present in me, it does however induce a physical response in me that can be seen. . . .

Danmark writes:

Seen by whom?

When the Holy Spirit is notably present in me, it induces a physical response in me that everyone could see. Please respond to what you read, rather than what you imagine you read.

Danmark writes:

In addition to the standard reasons for suspecting that what you experience as the Holy Spirit, I see one HUGE argument that you are flat wrong.

Coming from an atheist, that doesn't surprise me.

Danmark writes:

You have talked about laughing at the idea that atheists are going to hell. I know many Christians who would say this is evidence you are definitely NOT guided by the Holy Spirit. The few Christians on the list who have responded, disagree with you. I have heard no one, whether Christian, theist, non theist, atheist, former Christian or anyone agree with your statement that it is appropriate to laugh at those who are going to 'hell' because they do not share your beliefs.

And yet, it is written:

"The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them;
but the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he knows their day is coming."
(Psalm 37:12-13)

"But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you-- when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you." (Proverb;1:24-27)

There's a time to laugh and a time to cry. (Ecclesiastes 3:4)

Danmark writes:

I grew up with an evangelical faith and in a Christian denomination that put great stock in the two fold of both salvation and 'sanctification;' that is, salvation by belief in Christ as God and sanctification: the infilling of the Holy Spirit. This is the holiness tradition that comes out of John Wesley Methodism as exemplified by the Nazarenes and Free Methodists, among others. Having spent 30 years in that tradition I can guarantee you that everyone I know from that tradition would suspect only a demon, not the Holy Spirit, would inspire glee or mirth at the prospect of a sinner going to hell.

Seems to me that you didn't learn anything about what it is to be a Christian from your evangelical friends. Why should I take their word for it? If you don't mind, I'll stick to the Word of God for my guidance.