JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[evilsorcerer1]

Jesus wasn't a God and not only that I think not a real person. From what I've heard scriptures had been studied in great detail for years and I think some believed they had found a code. The reason is there's code everywhere in the world except mostly it's just recognizing lies are everywhere. I think people thought the OT had been more of a symbolic book and that the characters in it never existed but were written as a guide and that the prophecy was that there would be be an apocalypse when the last generation of 'his children' had been born. And I think they wrote the book with Jesus being the symbol of that whole generation. But I think that day already passed and now we're just waiting for all people to be born for the end of the world, whatever that may be. But there are too many inconsistencies with the story, just like in the new testament. But I have some topics I'd like to discuss. When many animals are born they're born inside an egg, and many times aren't alive until they reach full maturity. But is there something in DNA of all living things that if it dies it can never be reborn? In other words if that chicken egg was crushed before it was actually carrying a living thing it wouldn't matter, but if a human baby were actually not alive in the womb (for some strange reason like a person has to receive air in their lungs to become a living being after they exit the womb) then it would have to be possible if that baby were killed to be reborn because no one will escape being created that isn't supposed to.

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

You have only touched and did not quote references or parts of it that are meaningful to you. I have not seen any Bibles with YHWH in it only God and Jehovah in OT and Lord and Christ in NT. Hard to respond.

Quote: "He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," -that's not in my Bible but do convince with refference.

I don't really understand what your point is. It looks like you haven't looked in on the many discussions there have been on these threads about the subject. You do know, right?, that YHWH is "Jehovah" or "Yahweh."

Post #223 explains the point I was referencing very well.

What does "your Bible" say at John 10:36? How about John 5:18 & 19 and John 19:7?

Or Matthew 27:43?

How about John 17:1 and John 20:17?

[Benoni]

JW have their own little group of bias scholars and they cannot see past that even if you gave them chapter and verse. I have posted many scriptures which they either spin or ignore.

[Monta]

JW have their own little group of bias scholars and they cannot see past that even if you gave them chapter and verse. I have posted many scriptures which they either spin or ignore.

I agree. Have read enough to know what they believe and not willing to read it again and again.

[Falling Light 101]

[font=Verdana].
it is truly beyond our understand in reference to our Abilities.

(Jesus) and God the Father coexisting in the same place and at the same time.

Jesus saying that he does nothing of HIMSELF But what He Sees the Father Do - this is what he Does also. He is on Earth - Seeing The father make a Move and Jesus is doing the Same eXact thing that The Father is doing. because The Father is In Him

REMEMBER How Jesus Said in Joh 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Joh 10:38 But if You don't believe me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jesus was on Earth and In Heaven all at the Very Same Time.
understand How Jesus Can Be Man and God at The Same Time.

REMEMBER the Verse in Joh 5:19 .... The Son can do Nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Jesus is not a separate independent Deity or Separate Person of a trinity but He is Literally the Father Himself - manifesting Himself as a Servant and Sacrifice.

1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

While on earth - Jesus Said he would Send another DIFFERENT Comforter / Advocate. This Is the Light that is given to every man who comes into the world.

The Greek word Comforter here is Greek 3875 πα�α�κλητος / paraklētos / par-ak'-lay-tos - = An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

This same word is used as an advocate in 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an Comforter / Advocate. with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Jesus Christ is the very Comforter / Advocate
Advocate and Comforter are always The same eXact Greek word / paraklētos

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Joh 14:23 ........, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and come unto him, and make dwelling with him.

Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. …
Joh 14:28 I go away, and come again unto you.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter / Advocate that he may abide with you for ever;

Jesus is the Father - On The throne of the Father who is Coming Back as the Comforter / Advocate. The Holy Spirit of Light. Filling believers with His Spirit.

There is no Trinity. 3 separate, distinct Persons. They are all 1 Person. One God. Manifesting and Working Doing Things to bring Salvation to Mankind.

These 3 are not 3 - These 3 are 1 . . [/font]

[Monta]

[Replying to post 234 by Falling Light 101]


"Jesus is the Father - On The throne of the Father who is Coming Back as the Comforter / Advocate. The Holy Spirit of Light. Filling believers with His Spirit.

There is no Trinity. 3 separate, distinct Persons. They are all 1 Person. One God. Manifesting and Working Doing Things to bring Salvation to Mankind.

These 3 are not 3 - These 3 are 1 . . "

Trinity has proven difficult for many. Some scriptures seem to contradict.
You have done very well of putting it togather.
One point I definitely can not agree with is that 'Jesus is the Father' from your quote above because it is not clear. He was born as any other child. Perhaps you could elaborate?

[Benoni]

JW have their own little group of bias scholars and they cannot see past that even if you gave them chapter and verse. I have posted many scriptures which they either spin or ignore.

I agree. Have read enough to know what they believe and not willing to read it again and again.

Yes like a broken record with the same dead message.

Broken cistern that hold no water.

God’s Word is like a river that flows its called revelation no the dead letter that killeth


Here is a spiritual example from scripture:

Ezekiel 47: 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

Water is symbolic of the Word of God.

How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new� scare them.

[Falling Light 101]

[font=Arial].

Thank You for responding to my Posts. I am honored to be here.

]I would like to respond - and show You more about this contradiction between Trinitarians and Basic Biblical Followers who declare That

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

i understand that You can not agree with the IDEA that 'Jesus is the Father'

But REMEMBER - The Bible declares that Jesus Christ - is God of the Old Testament. This Is the reason that the Apostles And Disciples Baptized in The Name Of The Lord Jesus Christ.

WHEN JESUS TOLD PETER Go teach all nations - BAPTIZING them in the , N a m e
OF the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost
WHAT DID PETER DO … WHAT is the example in the bible .. What did the Apostles do ?
Just DAYS LATER IN (Acts 2:38. Peter preached a sermon The CROWD then asked “PETER, " What do we DO TO BE SAVED

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, For the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Every single eXample in the entire bible - Shows that Jesus Christ is the NAME by which we are to be baptized into. Every single last time.
GA 3:27...... For as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ
1CO 1:13...... Is Christ divided? ..was Paul crucified for you? or were ye BAPTIZED in the name of Paul? Here - Paul is commanding to baptise DIRECTLY _ in JESUS NAME - clearly
RO 6:3...... Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ were BAPTIZED into his death?
AC 19:5 ...... When they heard this, they were BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus.
AC 10:48...... and he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord.
AC 8:16...... (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were.. BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord Jesus. )
AC 8:12...... But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and in the name of Jesus Christ, they were BAPTIZED.
Acts 19:3-5 ......"They were baptized unto Johns baptism. } Paul, SAID YOU are to BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS... ... When they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
Luk 24:47 Repentance and remission of sins should be preached in HIS NAME among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 4:12: "Neither is there salvation in any other: For there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
_____________________________________________________________________
We see that The Name ({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) of Jesus Christ is a declaration of who He is
The Son born ( Jesus ) His Name ({ ש�� Shêm }) shall be called
({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) 1. Wonderful
({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) 2. Counsellor
({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) 3. The Mighty God
({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) 4. The everlasting Father
({ Jesus Name ש�� Shêm }) 5. The Prince of Peace
When you mention the name Jesus Christ you are calling upon all the names mentioned in Isa. 9:6
Psa 116:4 Then called I upon the Name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul.
Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Jesus is Both Lord and Christ - Eph 4:5 tells us that There is _ “ One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
. Trinitarians Simply have no scriptures for their faith.
The Greek word One here . is Greek 1520 εἷς heis / hice. Meaning [font=Comic Sans MS]A primary numeral; one: - only 1[/font] . There are not 3 persons , Three Deities or a Triad, Trinity or a Threesome or a Trio Godhead.

These 3 are 1 - They are not 3 But only 1. Christ the Image and manifestation of The Invisible God.

Jesus Christ is also the Husband / Bridegroom. God The Father also - The spiritual husband of His People.

Trinitarians have 2 Spiritual Husbands and worship 3 deities and make mockery of the Godhead with their Roman Catholic Trinity and False Baptism.

There is Historical Proof that the Trinity Doctrine and Trinity baptism was Brought into the Churches by the Roman Catholic Church.

Please take the Time to see this proof. Please Just read the Facts in the Historical Encyclopedias

Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (1951). II, 384, 389: "The formula used was "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or some synonymous phrase; there is no evidence for the use of the trine name… The earliest form, represented in the Acts, was simple immersion… in water, the use of the name of the Lord, and the laying on of hands. To these were added, at various times and places which cannot be safely identified, (a) the trine name (Justin)…"

Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (1962), I 351: "The evidence… suggests that baptism in early Christianity was administered, not in the threefold name, but 'in the name of Jesus Christ' or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus.'"

Otto Heick, A History of Christian Thought (1965), I, 53: "At first baptism was administered in the name of Jesus, but gradually in the name of the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible (1898). I, 241: "[One explanation is that] the original form of words was "into the name of Jesus Christ" or 'the Lord Jesus,' Baptism into the name of the Trinity was a later development."

Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church (1947), page 58: "The trinitarian baptismal formula,,, was displacing the older baptism in the name of Christ."

The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1957), I, 435: "The New Testament knows only baptism in the name of Jesus… which still occurs even in the second and third centuries."
Canney's Encyclopedia of Religions (1970), page 53: "Persons were baptized at first 'in the name of Jesus Christ' … or 'in the name of the Lord Jesus'… Afterwards, with the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, they were baptized 'in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'"

Encyclopedia Biblica (1899), I, 473: "It is natural to conclude that baptism was administered in the earliest times 'in the name of Jesus Christ,' or in that 'of the Lord Jesus.' This view is confirmed by the fact that the earliest forms of the baptismal confession appear to have been single-not triple, as was the later creed."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed. (1920), II 365: "The trinitarian formula and trine immersion were not uniformly used from the beginning… Bapti[sm] into the name of the Lord [was] the normal formula of the New Testament. In the 3rd century baptism in the name of Christ was still so widespread that Pope Stephen, in opposition to Cyprian of Carthage, declared it to be valid."

FAUSSETS BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA, page 359 - Jesus. Means� Jehovah Salvation. "Peter replied, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of ...the authenticity of water baptism today in the name of �Jesus Christ,� cannot be denied!
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol.13, p.1021 - The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian’s writings (about 213 A.D.) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.

World Book Encyclopedia, 1975 Edition, Vol. T, p.363 - Belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost was first defined by the earliest general council of churches. This was the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.

NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLOPEDIA, Vol 22, Pg 477 The term “Trinity� was originated by Tertullian, a Roman Catholic Church Father.
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[liamconnor]

There is no possible way of linking Jesus with THE Father of the Old Testament because the Old Testament knows nothing of THE Father. There is no concept of THE Father in the O.T., anymore than there is of THE Son of the O.T. In the O.T. we have GOD, who is sometimes conceived as a father to Israel; sometimes as a father to Israel's king; sometimes as a husband to Israel. In the O.T. YHWH and Elohim are names referring to a single entity.

In the N.T., that single entity is seen to be more complex than the O.T. let on. The N.T. authors did not make formulas with hypostasis and substance and essence as the church fathers and later scholars felt necessary. They simply spoke of one entity while mentioning three identities: Father, Son, and Spirit. These three identities were not explicitly in the O.T. This did not keep the N.T. authors for reading the O.T. and seeing in the single entity a plurality; and in various ways (there was no rule at the early stages) they took the various O.T. designations for a single entity, and redistributed them to the various identities. Thus Paul refers to Jesus as the son of God and attaches to him the title YHWH: the same O.T. Entity, but an inner identity. He also attaches to the father the title Elohim. Same O.T. entity, but yet another identity.

Paul is difficult because, unlike John, he rarely is concerned with the preexistent Son. In the one place he is (Phil) he yet does not take care to come up with a term distinguishing the preexistent Son from the Incarnate Son. Christ and Jesus are used of both. John is far more precise, using Logos for the preexistent identity, and Jesus as the Incarnate Logos. He also does not follow Paul's pattern of referring to Jesus as YHWH and the Father as Elohim, for he has Thomas call Jesus both Lord and God. That is, both YHWH and Elohim are applied to him.

The one are of wiggle room available to Arians and non-trinitarians is that the N.T. is written in Greek, not Hebrew, and therefore there can never be an explicit reference to Jesus as YHWH; for YHWH is Hebrew.

This wiggle room, however, turns out to be quite tight, for O.T. passages in which YHWH is named are attributed to Jesus. That is, the Jesus of the N.T. is identified with the YHWH of the old.


This dispute is a linguistic one. It seems that all the steam on the non-trinitarian side is emotional steam--an appreciated, but nevertheless misguided, piety. But piety, however sincere, can cloud sound thinking. It was primarily piety that led to the R.C. doctrine that Mary was born without sin and was kept from sin. Logic can of course destroy this doctrine.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 237 by Falling Light 101]


"I would like to respond - and show You more about this contradiction between Trinitarians and Basic Biblical Followers who declare That

Jesus is Both Lord and Christ. And There is only One Lord Not Two or Three Lords.

i understand that You can not agree with the IDEA that 'Jesus is the Father' "

Not Jesus as the baby but His soul was the Divine of the Father as he said - I come from the Father.

On the cross when Jesus gave up his spirit He exclaimed 'it is finished'!
The work of redemption has been completed all what remained is Ascension
- 'I go to my Father'.
The Divine Word (Wisdom) having re-established the order is to be again united with the Divine Love (the Father). God is One.