If God wants to destroy evil...

[Zarathustra]

God created everything that has been, is, and is going to be in existence. He created the Earth and the Heavens. He created the Lake of Fire in which he casts sinners. He created Good, and He created evil. Does not the old adage says "I have created you, and so can I destroy you"?

If God wanted to, couldn't He, in theory, destroy evil with no need for the battle of the apocalypse?

[spetey]

Hey folks, hi Harvey. I'll try again to see if I can state your response to the Problem of Evil. I still think this is a good and worthwhile exercise.

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but God usually does not act in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so too often would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami would violate God's lower self. For this reason, permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?


spetey

[harvey1]

Hello Spetey,

God sets the boundary conditions of how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but God never acts in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping a tsunami, in many instances, could violate God's lower self or it could violate God's nature. For this reason, permitting the tsunami in 2004 happened to be the only way to reach the Omega state.

[spetey]

Hey folks, hi Harvey. I'll try again to see if I can state your response to the Problem of Evil in wording with which you can agree. It is modified some from my previous attempt in line, I think, with your suggestion.

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else would not have violated God's lower self but would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?


spetey

[spetey]

Hey folks, hi Harvey. I'll try again to see if I can state your response to the Problem of Evil in wording with which you can agree. It is modified some from my previous attempt in line, I think, with your suggestion.

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else would not have violated God's lower self but would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?


spetey

[harvey1]

Hey Spetey,

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else would not have violated God's lower self but would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?

Let me make a few changes since I see that you're starting to veer away from my argument...

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) will behave for each world.

God does not establish how the lower self (physical laws) will behave. God determines how the lower self cannot behave.

Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else would not have violated God's lower self but would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason.

Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else the restrictions placed on the lower self to avoid the tsunami would have been an unacceptable tradeoff. An unacceptable tradeoff would be any tradeoff that interferes with God's nature as a perfect being.

So, here we have it:

God does not establish how the lower self (physical laws) will behave. God determines how the lower self cannot behave. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else the restrictions placed on the lower self to avoid the tsunami would have been an unacceptable tradeoff. An unacceptable tradeoff would be any tradeoff that interferes with God's nature as a perfect being. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

[spetey]

Hey folks, hi Harvey. I'll try again to see if I can state your response to the Problem of Evil in wording with which you can agree. It is modified some from my previous attempt in line, I think, with your suggestion.

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) cannot behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else restricting this lower self to prevent such events would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?


spetey

[harvey1]

Hey Spetey,

or else restricting this lower self to prevent such events would have hampered progress toward the Omega state for some other reason. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

This is the problem clause. If the lower self is not violated, then restricting this lower self to prevent such events could involve a tradeoff situation that requires a compromising of God's inherent nature. Yes, if God's inherent nature is compromised, paradox prevents the Omega state being reached. However, it is not necessarily the individual progress of the universe(s) that prevents the Omega state (i.e., if God were to restrict the lower self in those situations). What definitely prevents the Omega state from being reached is that Reality is in paradox. By Reality I mean everything (universe(s) along with God).

As an example, if an insurance company is processing claims for Hurricane Dennis, they have their sole claim agent in Florida processing claims as long as their regulations are followed precisely. However, this insurance company also sees the importance of having the agent act in the best interest of the company and their customers, so they design the regulations to give the agent some freedom to act in the company's larger interest. That is, they understand that there are many situations where the agent should not have a regulation which forces their hand, and in those instances, they have no problem with the agent acting. The situation is explicitly detailed in the regulations on when the claim is subject to the discretion of the agent. There is just one caveat for those situations, they insist the claim agent uphold the employee regulations at all times.

So, in an instance where an agent receives a claim for Dennis from a guy owning property (living in Michigan), the agent just happens to have the power to decide without violating any regulation. The agent should then decide if any employee regulations are violated.

Thus, one of the employee regulations is that the agent should be fair. Another is that the agent should manage their budget. If the agent encounters a claim that allows the agent to act in conformance to the regulations, but if the claim is such that it would require going over budget if everyone filed the same claim, then the agent might deny the claim for no other reason than the agent is not required to issue the claim by the company policies, and doing so for one and not the others might be considered unfair to the others who did not make the same claim. Being unfair is a violation of employee policies, so the agent should carefully consider whether they would be unfair in that situation. Of course, the agent is all-powerful in issuing claims of this sort, and they really are an all-good agent, but by denying the claim to the guy in Michigan the agent does not appear to be either all-powerful or all-good. The guy in Michigan is just mistaken because he doesn't know all that the agent must consider when making the decisions that the agent must make.

As long as the agent does a good job of issuing claims, the customers finally get all their claims and even the guy in Michigan finally meets the agent and realizes his mistake. Had the agent issued the claim to the Michigan guy, perhaps he would have been happier sooner, but at no point was the final state of all of this been prevented. The agent did everything right.

So, I really have to insist on the former wording (or comparable wording)...

[spetey]

Hullo! Back for another try.

If the lower self is not violated, then restricting this lower self to prevent such events could involve a tradeoff situation that requires a compromising of God's inherent nature. Yes, if God's inherent nature is compromised, paradox prevents the Omega state being reached. However, it is not necessarily the individual progress of the universe(s) that prevents the Omega state (i.e., if God were to restrict the lower self in those situations). What definitely prevents the Omega state from being reached is that Reality is in paradox. By Reality I mean everything (universe(s) along with God).

So, I really have to insist on the former wording (or comparable wording)...

I'd rather try to get it in my own words, so that before we discuss your response in more detail we can both have some confidence that I have your response, at least in broad outline, quite correct. So here goes:

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) cannot behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else restricting this lower self to prevent such events would have resulted in other effects that would provide a bad net tradeoff in progress toward the Omega state--making God paradoxically imperfect. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

Now, does that seem right? If not, what's missing or inaccurate?


spetey

[harvey1]

Hey Spetey,

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) cannot behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else restricting this lower self to prevent such events would have resulted in other effects that would provide a bad net tradeoff in progress toward the Omega state--making God paradoxically imperfect. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

This looks approximately correct. Of course, I prefer my own words for my own comfort level, but I don't see any reason to be too picky at this point. If there are any accidental admissions I'm sure it'll come out in our discussion...

[spetey]

Hullo again!

God can do whatever is logically possible and God should will; in this sense God is omnipotent. God's supreme will is to bring about the Omega State, which is an ending, and which is an ideally good state. Everything else God wills is as a means toward reaching this Omega State. In other words, God judges each potential action of God's on the basis of whether or not it will help bring about the Omega State.

God establishes how God's lower self (physical laws) cannot behave for each world. God often acts in these worlds to bring about the Omega state, but never in ways that violate God's lower self, since doing so would not bring about the Omega state. Stopping the tsunami either would have violated God's lower self, or else restricting this lower self to prevent such events would have resulted in other effects that would provide a bad net tradeoff in progress toward the Omega state--making God paradoxically imperfect. Thus permitting the tsunami was the only way to reach the Omega state.

This looks approximately correct. Of course, I prefer my own words for my own comfort level, but I don't see any reason to be too picky at this point. If there are any accidental admissions I'm sure it'll come out in our discussion...

Hooray! I hope you feel a little more confident that I understand the basics of your position.

Now. I have already provided arguments against this position (and indeed against all those versions I gave previous to it). Perhaps you can help make me feel a little understood by giving me what you think my key response to your response is?


spetey