Atheism - How can one lack belief?

[theleftone]

I am looking for someone to explain to me (a) the concept of "lacking a belief in the existence of any deities," and (b) how one can truly maintain a position once coming into contact with the concept of a deity. Thus, my questions would be as follows.

1. What does it mean to "lack belief in the existence of any deities?"
2. Is it possible for one to have such a "lack of belief?"
3. Is it possible for one to maintain such a position after being introduced to the concept of a deity?
4. If so, to number 3, how?

[bernee51]

[quote="tselem]I am making no special pleading. You see, I don't see it as possible that one can "lack belief" once one has come to knowledge of and understanding about a concept. [/quote]
This seems top be a well trodden path...
I have knowledge of the concept of god. I do not lack belief in the concept of god. I do however lack belief that that concept is manifested in some way by an actual god or gods.

Is this not 'lackling belief'?

[OccamsRazor]

I have been in and out of this argument and am surprised that it is still going strong. Largely though I must say that I see Tselem's point.

I have knowledge of the concept of god. I do not lack belief in the concept of god. I do however lack belief that that concept is manifested in some way by an actual god or gods.

Is this not 'lacking belief'?

Surely this does not quite work. Before presentation with the concept one has a 'null' state or they 'lack belief'. After being presented with the concept and asked whether you believe in it then you may only answer yes, no or I don't know.

If the belief is based on a previous decision such as "Do you believe that God loves you?" you may lack a belief here because the concept requires a previous belief (i.e. a belief in God) which you do not hold.

If however you were asked "Do you believe in God?" then I cannot see that anyone here would answer, "I have no opinion in this matter".

This is more acute when talking about such an immotive issue as the existence of a creator. If I were asked, "Do you believe in God?" then I would simply answer, "No".

Surely what you mean to say is:

I have knowledge of the concept of god. I do not lack belief in the concept of god. I do not believe that that concept is manifested in some way by an actual god or gods.

I do not think that 'I do not believe' is synonymous with 'I lack the belief'. I think that this semantic difference is the reason for this disagreement.

[theleftone]

I have knowledge of the concept of god. I do not lack belief in the concept of god. I do however lack belief that that concept is manifested in some way by an actual god or gods.

Is this not 'lackling belief'?

I struggle with this. It appears you simply replacing "God" with the phrases "manifestation of the God concept." Hence, it moves me no closer to understanding what you mean by lacking belief. My concern is not the object of lacking belief, necessarily. It is to understand precisely what is meant by the term.

[theleftone]

If the belief is based on a previous decision such as "Do you believe that God loves you?" you may lack a belief here because the concept requires a previous belief (i.e. a belief in God) which you do not hold.

Good point here. The lack of belief with regards to the secondary belief would simply be. It would not be the active result of mental activity on the issue, but rather the passive outcome of a decision on the primary belief.

[open pondering]
Perhaps then, it would actually be possible to lack belief in God if there were some necessary primary belief through which one must accept to accept that God exists? If so, what might that belief be? Does this belief equally have necessary prerequisite beliefs? To restate the question, what beliefs are prerequisite beliefs to belief in God?
[/open pondering]

[OccamsRazor]

Does this belief equally have necessary prerequisite beliefs?

This is a very good question.
I would have to say that belief in God does not require prerequisite beliefs. The reason being that the term "God" covers a whole host of ideas but all can be ultimately resolved to "Do you believe that the Universe created by a higher intelligence?". I do not yet know of a theology which does not incorporate the idea that a deity created the Universe.

Having reduced the question to this single statement. I cannot see how this logically rests upon a previous belief (unless you are an extreme skeptic and question the existence of the Universe).

[theleftone]

Does this belief equally have necessary prerequisite beliefs?

This is a very good question.
I would have to say that belief in God does not require prerequisite beliefs. The reason being that the term "God" covers a whole host of ideas but all can be ultimately resolved to "Do you believe that the Universe created by a higher intelligence?". I do not yet know of a theology which does not incorporate the idea that a deity created the Universe.

Having reduced the question to this single statement. I cannot see how this logically rests upon a previous belief (unless you are an extreme skeptic and question the existence of the Universe).

That's an interesting point. Per my thinking above, if we accept this as the case then it would definitely be difficult for one to retain the "lack of belief" state once coming to knowledge of the given concept. Lack of belief would be limited to those who lack knowledge of and about the concept.

[Cathar1950]

Surely at some point in your life you've been introduced to the idea of talking, flying pink unicorns ... how exactly do you maintain the position that they do not exist, now that you've heard of them? Atheism is the same way.

Is atheism a "lack of belief," a propositional claim denying the existence of gods, or both?

Depends on the atheist. Some say there may be a god, but since we don't currently have any evidence for one, they don't believe. Others say there absolutely is not and cannot be a god, and anyone who suggests otherwise is delusional.

Atheism by definition, of course, is simply being "without theism", or theistic beliefs.

I see a lot of that confusion. Try defining theism to everyone's standards or concepts. Most of it seems like word games. How can one lack belief is a good example. Just the word "belief" opens an infinite possibility of misunderstanding and would be largely out of context. To get to a workable definition you would have to whittle it down to a convenient buzzword or expand it to mean everything including types of knowledge.
I have seen some toss instincts into the foray.


We need some women in this other thread.

Feminist Atheist Quotes
Who says all the prominent atheists were men?

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 114#105114

[Cathar1950]

Does this belief equally have necessary prerequisite beliefs?

This is a very good question.
I would have to say that belief in God does not require prerequisite beliefs. The reason being that the term "God" covers a whole host of ideas but all can be ultimately resolved to "Do you believe that the Universe created by a higher intelligence?". I do not yet know of a theology which does not incorporate the idea that a deity created the Universe.

Having reduced the question to this single statement. I cannot see how this logically rests upon a previous belief (unless you are an extreme skeptic and question the existence of the Universe).

Beliefs are also shaped by our experiences. This would include our evolutionary experiences as mammals as just one. Culture and family all shape our beliefs.
Some Panentheist would say God is in everything and therefore experienced.
I can see the attraction to bumper stickers and t-shits that say it all.

[AClockWorkOrange]

this strikes me as a symantic word trap.

i conciously dismiss the belief in a god, so this can be said that i lack a belief, or have a negative belief.

the use of either term seems eronious to me.

it can be argued that lack of a belief occurs becuase a concept has not been introduced to a being, ie: all babies are impicite athiests becuase they lack a concept of god.

i have dismissed god becuase i havnt been givin satisfactory proof, logical or physical AND the idea of an omniscient being that gives my life some convoluted meaning doesnt bring me enough "comfort".

so, this can be said that i have a negative belief in god...or a lack of belief, i dont care.

i lack belief in the unicorn...or i have a negative belief in unicorns.

word traps seem like wasted "logic".

[Cathar1950]

I was thinking word game CWO but "symantic word trap" might be better as its desire or purpose is to lead us into indoctrination and mind gamess. I think we mean semantic word trap.
What I do see in the last few hundred years is atheist defining themselves against theist defining them.
It was rare that Christian scholars of the past could question doctrine, dogma and the nature of the writings. But they still did it some times at the risk of their life some times they even wasted their time.