Hamas

[tatty]

What is your opinion of Hamas being called to the ICC?

Is the amount of force used by Israel a war crime or justified retaliation?

[cnorman18]

I see what you are saying, and yes, Israel are in an extremely difficult situation. When rockets are fired at them from crowded areas, what can they do? They can't sit back and do nothing, and so they return fire, and as a result, civilian lives are wasted. They've found themselves in a terrible position.

I usually sit these debates out, but here I have to put in a comment:

No, Israelis do not "find themselves" in this terrible position. They are PUT in that terrible position, routinely, and quite deliberately, by Hamas and their ilk. Should the Israelis be punished for what they are quite literally forced to do in response?

Why?

Launching attacks from civilian areas is a war crime. Using ambulances to smuggle weapons, bombs and fighters is a war crime. Disguising suicide bombers as pregnant women in labor is a war crime. Using schools and mosques and hospitals to store weapons and bombs and as places from which to launch attacks is a war crime.

And, lest we forget, deliberately targeting unarmed civilians as primary targets is a war crime, too - and Hamas & Company rarely, if ever, target anyone else.

Yes, it's terrible to stop ambulances and pregnant women and search them; but who has made that necessary? Why are those who have made it necessary not the ones who are condemned, but those who are forced to take those defensive measures?

What is the alternative for the Israelis here? Give Hamas and other murderers free rein, a safe haven, King's X, and make no response at all to vicious attacks on civilians? How will that be helpful? How is that justice? How is that not simply making the war crimes of Hamas, etc., de facto legal?

If the actions of Israel in self-defense are not acceptable, what would be? If you can't give an acceptable and effective alternative for dealing with these criminal terrorist attacks, I don't see how legitimate criticism of Israel is even possible here.

On these matters, the roots and causes and history of the conflict are irrelevant. Even if the Palestinians' case were as pure and righteous and holy as can be imagined - which I do not grant - it would not justify these criminal tactics, with which Israel has to deal in real life, not in theory or speculation.

[VermilionUK]

No, Israelis do not "find themselves" in this terrible position. They are PUT in that terrible position, routinely, and quite deliberately, by Hamas and their ilk. Should the Israelis be punished for what they are quite literally forced to do in response?

I don't disagree that they should defend themselves, but come on, using phosphorus, blocking ambulances, restricting water and bombing UN designated areas is no way for Israel to conduct themselves.

Launching attacks from civilian areas is a war crime. Using ambulances to smuggle weapons, bombs and fighters is a war crime. Disguising suicide bombers as pregnant women in labor is a war crime. Using schools and mosques and hospitals to store weapons and bombs and as places from which to launch attacks is a war crime.

I don't dispute that.

Why are those who have made it necessary not the ones who are condemned, but those who are forced to take those defensive measures?

They are, we all accept that they ( Hamas/Hezbollah) are disgusing militia groups who could easily be named terrorists.

What is the alternative for the Israelis here? Give Hamas and other murderers free rein, a safe haven, King's X, and make no response at all to vicious attacks on civilians? How will that be helpful? How is that justice? How is that not simply making the war crimes of Hamas, etc., de facto legal?

If the actions of Israel in self-defense are not acceptable, what would be? If you can't give an acceptable and effective alternative for dealing with these criminal terrorist attacks, I don't see how legitimate criticism of Israel is even possible here.

On these matters, the roots and causes and history of the conflict are irrelevant. Even if the Palestinians' case were as pure and righteous and holy as can be imagined - which I do not grant - it would not justify these criminal tactics, with which Israel has to deal in real life, not in theory or speculation.

Like I've said, I think one of the few options available would be to send UN forces in. We need to stop Hamas and Hezbollah from attacking Israel, but we can't leave it up to Israel to do it themselves - we've already seen the harm that can do.

I know it's difficult to fight an invisible enemy, who hide amongst civilians, but you can't just use brute force and hope for the best.

On a side note, don't you think it's insane that President Obama recieved a Nobel Peace Prize? I'm still trying to discover where he has achieved peace. I've no doubt that he'll do great things in the way of peace, but I think this was way too early.

[cnorman18]

No, Israelis do not "find themselves" in this terrible position. They are PUT in that terrible position, routinely, and quite deliberately, by Hamas and their ilk. Should the Israelis be punished for what they are quite literally forced to do in response?

I don't disagree that they should defend themselves, but come on, using phosphorus, blocking ambulances, restricting water and bombing UN designated areas is no way for Israel to conduct themselves.

First, on stopping ambulances; when terrorists use ambulances as weapons, to smuggle weapons, bombs and fighters, what is the proper solution? Just let them pass uninspected?

Second, many of those other reports are disputed; they are allegations, not hard facts, and there are two sides to those tales. I don't intend to debate them here.

I don't dispute that there have been excesses on the Israeli side, but they don't excuse or justify ignoring or condoning the mass murder of civilians as a conscious and considered policy. And admit it or not, that's what's happening here.

Launching attacks from civilian areas is a war crime. Using ambulances to smuggle weapons, bombs and fighters is a war crime. Disguising suicide bombers as pregnant women in labor is a war crime. Using schools and mosques and hospitals to store weapons and bombs and as places from which to launch attacks is a war crime.

I don't dispute that.

But, as I have found to be predictable in these conversations, that's all you have to say about it.

Like most conversations of this kind, the track here is the usual: "Yes, yes, those terrorists do terrible things. Everyone knows that. Now what should be done about those Israelis?"

Why are those who have made it necessary not the ones who are condemned, but those who are forced to take those defensive measures?

They are, we all accept that they ( Hamas/Hezbollah) are disgusing militia groups who could easily be named terrorists.

To what effect? What follows from that acceptance?

Whose "crimes" are more aggressively reported in the world press?

More to the point: Who, other than Israel, is actually doing anything to stop the terror?

Lip service to condemning the deliberate mass murder of innocent civilians, as a primary goal, is all very well. But then invariably follows nothing more whatever on that subject, and the usual condemnation of reactions and responses to those mass murders. No matter what they are.

What is the alternative for the Israelis here? Give Hamas and other murderers free rein, a safe haven, King's X, and make no response at all to vicious attacks on civilians? How will that be helpful? How is that justice? How is that not simply making the war crimes of Hamas, etc., de facto legal?

If the actions of Israel in self-defense are not acceptable, what would be? If you can't give an acceptable and effective alternative for dealing with these criminal terrorist attacks, I don't see how legitimate criticism of Israel is even possible here.

On these matters, the roots and causes and history of the conflict are irrelevant. Even if the Palestinians' case were as pure and righteous and holy as can be imagined - which I do not grant - it would not justify these criminal tactics, with which Israel has to deal in real life, not in theory or speculation.

Like I've said, I think one of the few options available would be to send UN forces in.

That's unacceptable from the get-go. Israelis don't trust the UN at all, and with very good reason.

The UN has a shameful record of allowing terrorist groups to rearm, openly and in full view of "observers," while doing nothing to stop it and even preventing the Israelis from stopping it. This sort of thing has been common with the UN since 1948..

On top of that proven practical ineffectiveness, there are the scores of knee-jerk condemnations of Israel from the UN at every flareup of violence in the Mideast, and the accompanying deafening silence about terror attacks. This has been the case for decades. Why would the Israelis turn over the safety and security of their people to an organization that patently has no interest in preserving them?

We need to stop Hamas and Hezbollah from attacking Israel, but we can't leave it up to Israel to do it themselves - we've already seen the harm that can do.

And who else will stop them - and how? Can you show me any evidence, other than high-minded talk and hot air, that anyone even wants to? That anyone has ever actually DONE anything? Anything at all?

The lesson that we Jews have taken away from our history - and there are countless dreadful examples from long before WWII, which was the most vivid demonstration of it possible - is that we can trust no one to defend us. We must defend ourselves.

I know it's difficult to fight an invisible enemy, who hide amongst civilians, but you can't just use brute force and hope for the best.

And is that what you claim the Israelis are doing? If that were the case, Jenin and other "refugee camps" where the terrorists train, recruit and build bombs would have been carpet-bombed instead of pacified through bloody and dangerous house-to-house fighting.

In my earlier post, I asked, "If the actions of Israel in self-defense are not acceptable, what would be? If you can't give an acceptable and effective alternative for dealing with these criminal terrorist attacks, I don't see how legitimate criticism of Israel is even possible here.". You acknowledged that this enemy is "difficult to fight," but offered nothing. Neither has anyone else.

Apparently that remains just the Israelis' problem: to figure out how to fight vicious mass murderers who recognize no rules of war at all, and fight them with their hands tied behind their backs.

My question has not changed; if the Israelis' actions are so terrible, what WOULD be an acceptable way to fight the terrorists?

The only solution I've ever seen offered is essentially "Surrender and abandon your nation." just for the record, that's not acceptable either.

On a side note, don't you think it's insane that President Obama recieved a Nobel Peace Prize? I'm still trying to discover where he has achieved peace. I've no doubt that he'll do great things in the way of peace, but I think this was way too early.

I think he was given the prize as a symbol, not as a man or a leader. It was given to recognize the significance of his election, which was indeed historic, and not to recognize anything he has actually done or is likely to do. In that light, I understand it.

I don't think I disapprove. His election was, after all, a major and incredibly significant event. I think it's proper to recognize that.

[Jonah]

With respect to the war in Gaza and the earlier summer war in Lebanon, anyone should give the Israeli public credit for its own analysis and critique of how those actions were carried out. Olmert's poll numbers sank into single digits.

Nations miscalculate and miscalibrate in war. That is a different issue than why a nation is provoked to defend itself, as Israel always is.

The bs propaganda is a staple diet of the Palestinian extremists. They accused Israel of a massacre in Jenin. There was no massacre. The UN went in and verified that. Did Israel get cleared in the international press? Of course not.

I carefully track the propaganda of the Lutheran Church in Palestine since I am a former Lutheran. They are constantly over here in the US spreading lies and exaggerating. I have actually seen them post photos of broken door locks and scream about IDF attack of their churches and schools. A broken door lock. I saw a blog post by the bishop's daughter wailing to high heaven about Israeli airport security at Ben Gurion Airport searching her Bible. They look through all my books and I'm glad they do.

The nature of Hamas is inherent in the fact that it is always a match strike away from civil war with Fatah. The Sunni Arab states want them to go away.

[Jayhawker Soule]

The bs propaganda is a staple diet of the Palestinian extremists. They accused Israel of a massacre in Jenin. There was no massacre. The UN went in and verified that. Did Israel get cleared in the international press? Of course not.

And, sadly, it is effective, in part because there exists an excess of those persistently willing to serve as vapid conduits of Hamas propaganda. VermilionUK starts with the presumption of Israel's guilt and simply repeats it over and over again.

That the Gazan ambulance may be part of the terrorist infrastructure doesn't occur to him. Certainly the terrorists wouldn't do such a thing. Certainly the Jews are capable of targeting ambulances for no legitimate reason. He knows this as surely as he knows that those Jews should be put on trial.

Or, perhaps, it doesn't occur to him that it should matter. So what if an ambulance is being used to transport a few terrorists or a few mortars. Why should that be a concern when the really important thing is to investigate those Jews ...

It's insipid, disgusting, and criminally irresponsible.

[Jonah]

We cannot understand them using their own children as bombs. How could anything cause that to happen? That in itself terrorizes me.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Here is the terrorist infrastructure that our Hamas apologists so willingly and thoughtlessly ignore and enable in their perverted drive to vilify Israel.

[cnorman18]

We cannot understand them using their own children as bombs. How could anything cause that to happen? That in itself terrorizes me.

Old saying among Israelis: "We use our bombs to protect our children; they use their children to protect their bombs."

How anyone can find the two sides morally equivalent beats me, and always has. Here's another old saying, and it's literally true; "If the terrorists put down their weapons, there would be no war. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."

[Jayhawker Soule]

How anyone can find the two sides morally equivalent beats me, and always has.

Some see what they want to see. There is no fundamental difference between the willing acceptance and promotion of of the idea of Jews targeting ambulances for no legitimate reason and the willing acceptance and promotion of the blood libel -- it's simply the Protocols rewritten in liberal script.

Edited to add:

• What angers me the most is not the noxious quality or ethical bankruptcy of the presumptions involved, but the fact that the persistent liberal drumbeat of moral equivalency enables and sustains Hamas and Hezbollah on the world stage. They continue to operate, in part, because the VermilionUKs of the world.

[Jonah]

I have a standard speech about what a Palestinian state without Hamas, without any terrorists would look like. Look at Nazareth and environs.

The Nazareth area is Arab. And prosperous. When I first went there in 1975 the town was run by a local Arab communist party, and the place was an absolute dump. I was there in 2005 and it is a well developed economy. Through cooperation with the State of Israel, the building of needed infrastructure including roads from Nazareth to the port of Haifa, the place has just utterly taken off.

Gaza could be a port, not a child-bomb factory.