Opposition to the spread of Islam in Europe..

[VermilionUK]

Considering recent events in Europe, including the Swiss minaret ban, and anti-Islam protests in London, it seems there is growing opposition to the spread of Islam.

In another thread, the Swiss minaret ban was referred to as "a case of religious discrimination and racism"

Question for debate/discussion: is the opposition to the spread of Islam "a case of religious discrimination and racism", or is it the growing fear of extremist Muslims which is making non-muslims fearful of Islam?

[TrueReligion]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

[VermilionUK]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

[TrueReligion]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

[VermilionUK]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

[TrueReligion]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

I think than you dont have idea and learned past 200 years of history, that which religion has done most attacks of terrorism, and when Islam was falsely placed in this picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _incidents

Read this and tell me how many Muslims were involved in past 200 years of terrorist attacks, and other religions, and why West is targeting Muslims only.

[VermilionUK]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

I think than you dont have idea and learned past 200 years of history, that which religion has done most attacks of terrorism, and when Islam was falsely placed in this picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _incidents

Read this and tell me how many Muslims were involved in past 200 years of terrorist attacks, and other religions, and why West is targeting Muslims only.

You've just proved that my point:

Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

is a valid point.

[TrueReligion]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

I think than you dont have idea and learned past 200 years of history, that which religion has done most attacks of terrorism, and when Islam was falsely placed in this picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _incidents

Read this and tell me how many Muslims were involved in past 200 years of terrorist attacks, and other religions, and why West is targeting Muslims only.

You've just proved that my point:

Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

is a valid point.

Rather than giving me justification, of why west is targeting muslims only, you now proved my point cleanly, that West is always racist, and BIAS, whenever any muslim ask justification that why Muslims are targeted as terrorists. no justification is given, and Western people start playing with words and runing away from facts, and you proved it here as well.
Nice game VUK

[VermilionUK]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

I think than you dont have idea and learned past 200 years of history, that which religion has done most attacks of terrorism, and when Islam was falsely placed in this picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _incidents

Read this and tell me how many Muslims were involved in past 200 years of terrorist attacks, and other religions, and why West is targeting Muslims only.

You've just proved that my point:

Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

is a valid point.

Rather than giving me justification, of why west is targeting muslims only, you now proved my point cleanly, that West is always racist, and BIAS, whenever any muslim ask justification that why Muslims are targeted as terrorists. no justification is given, and Western people start playing with words and runing away from facts, and you proved it here as well.
Nice game VUK

The problem of Muslim extremists will never go away until moderate Muslims admit that there is a problem and that it needs sorting out, rather than pointing the finger at other religions. All that achieves is showing how religion can manipulate people to do evil, or how people can use religion to accomplish their bad intentions.

You'll find that many religions, such as Christianity are aware of the extreme groups within their religion: such as the KKK. Near enough all of Christianity speak out against the KKK and similar extreme groups who are Christian.

However, it seems this view on extreme groups is not shared amongst the Muslim community in similar quantities - as there are still Muslims, such as yourself, who insist on pointing the finger at others rather than admit there is a problem within their religion.

Until you do such, there is little point to our discussion, as we will keep continue to go in circles.

[TrueReligion]

I'd still like to see the moderates raise more and stronger objections to the extremists, but unfortunately it seems a given religion is less likely to speak against its own members.

That's the big problem. What can you do when Muslims say "Oh, well they (the extremists) are not "true" Muslims"?
What help is that to anyone?:-k

The problem is that the extremists believe they are true Muslims, and that they are following their holy scripture - so calling them "not true" Muslims is pointless.

Where do we draw the line? How can we distinguish which are "true Muslims"? When folks are able to point to their religious ideologies and texts to harm or oppress others, I say do away with the religion (not the people).

Oh, but isn't that racism and religious discrimination? It would seem that you have to let the extremists get away with it, because standing up to them means you are a racist or anti-Islam.

Just 1 question, did West have same feelings for other religious groups , and other militant groups, who were doing terrorist attacks since 200-300 years?
And is that religion BAN in any part of Europe and whole religion termed as terrorist?

The "whole religion" of Islam and its followers are not termed as terrorists.

However, it does not get us anywhere when followers of Islam complain that they are being called terrorists, rather than helping to stand against the extremist Muslims who give them a bad reputation.

Even if those good muslims stand against the bad muslims, still western media is highlighting all muslims, and blaming scripture and etc etc for this.
Same thing as we discuss for Ban of Minaret, where no terrorist activity happen.

But, just my question was, that do West have same fear from other religions, or its only Islam?

Of course I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I personally have no reason to fear Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism etc - because there are no groups within such religions who seek to kill me and "the West", or at least there are no such groups on my doorstep, so to speak..

However, I do see and hear of groups within the Muslim community who do seek to kill those living in "the West" and those who do not submit to Islam.

I've no problem with Muslims as a whole, however I do have a problem with Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

I think than you dont have idea and learned past 200 years of history, that which religion has done most attacks of terrorism, and when Islam was falsely placed in this picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _incidents

Read this and tell me how many Muslims were involved in past 200 years of terrorist attacks, and other religions, and why West is targeting Muslims only.

You've just proved that my point:

Muslims who, rather than admit that there is a problem within their religion, instead tell us to look at other religions.

is a valid point.

Rather than giving me justification, of why west is targeting muslims only, you now proved my point cleanly, that West is always racist, and BIAS, whenever any muslim ask justification that why Muslims are targeted as terrorists. no justification is given, and Western people start playing with words and runing away from facts, and you proved it here as well.
Nice game VUK

The problem of Muslim extremists will never go away until moderate Muslims admit that there is a problem and that it needs sorting out, rather than pointing the finger at other religions. All that achieves is showing how religion can manipulate people to do evil, or how people can use religion to accomplish their bad intentions.

You'll find that many religions, such as Christianity are aware of the extreme groups within their religion: such as the KKK. Near enough all of Christianity speak out against the KKK and similar extreme groups who are Christian.

However, it seems this view on extreme groups is not shared amongst the Muslim community in similar quantities - as there are still Muslims, such as yourself, who insist on pointing the finger at others rather than admit there is a problem within their religion.

Until you do such, there is little point to our discussion, as we will keep continue to go in circles.

1st of all, There is no moderate muslims in Islam,moderate muslims are of worst kind, who destroy the name of Islam, and they are the main terrorists, good muslims, reject terrorism, but these good muslims are in reward are termed as terrorist.
The moderate muslims which you mean, are the one who walk in UK roads, with play cards, which you showed here. and from nowhere, they can be called as muslims, just by keeping name no one becomes muslims, you have to folow the scripture.

I just ask you, that is West afraid of other religions as well, as those religions are doing attacks of terrorism more than any muslim do, but why only name of Islamis used not of those religions? and you turned our discussion in other way.
Just tell me why west is not afraid of those religions even I showed that since long time they are doing terrorist attacks.

[VermilionUK]

1st of all, There is no moderate muslims in Islam,moderate muslims are of worst kind, who destroy the name of Islam, and they are the main terrorists, good muslims, reject terrorism, but these good muslims are in reward are termed as terrorist.

With an opinion like that, you're not too far away from being one of those "extremist" Muslims.

The moderate muslims which you mean, are the one who walk in UK roads, with play cards, which you showed here. and from nowhere, they can be called as muslims, just by keeping name no one becomes muslims, you have to folow the scripture.

So a Muslim cannot be a "true" Muslim if they live by Western standards? Also, what parts of the scripture are they not following if they live in the UK?

Just tell me why west is not afraid of those religions even I showed that since long time they are doing terrorist attacks.

Like I said, I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I suspect that it's because extremists in other religions are rejected by the majority of the non-extreme followers of that religion - however, in Islam, non-extreme Muslims seem to have no objection to extremist Muslims, and those who do object to them seem to be a minority.

Lets face it, you have shown that you do not object to the extremists, and you've even gone to the point of calling moderate Muslims "the worst kind". In effect, you have chose to stand up for the extremists, rather than the peaceful moderates - which is concerning to say the least.