Israel a pariah nation

[Misty]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 195838.stm

It is a great pity Israel was ever permitted to create their own nation without the same privilege being granted to the Palestinians. If the US hadn't supported them over the years maybe they would be so militant. I don't support violence from either side, but Israel seems to be the aggressor in most conflicts.

[Solon]

What was their alternative?

Do it in the blockade zone rather than in international waters, for one. The IDF has no authority on the open seas. Also they could have sent a force that was specialized in crowd/riot control, and with greater numbers, and not fast roping one at a time onto the deck. It's like sending a squad of Navy Seals to deal with a protest that has the potential to become a riot rather than riot police and swat teams.

Allowing the ship to dock in Israel and have the goods delivered overland was a perfectly reasonable solution; that was rejectedl by the flotilla's organizers in favor of deliberate provocation, which was of course their plan from the beginning. Allowing the ship to run the blockade would have had even worse consequences, as outlined by John Podhoretz in my post.

They want the blockade lifted, Israel doesn't want to lift the blockade. I don't see either side moving an inch on this.

Notice that I agree that the mission was intended to provoke a violent reaction in my first post. I don't begrudge Israel the right to protect themselves, I do question the means they use to do so. I think bloodshed could have been avoided while still preventing the flotilla from running the blockade. I also think they need to consider international opinion because they are being very effectively isolated through PR right now. Israel can't afford that.

Tell me what the Israelis should have done.

World opinion matters, but not much. Jews have long since learned that no one on Earth much cares about their security or welfare, and no country on Earth, including the US, can be depended upon for support or alliances. We're on our own, and always have been. Everybody hates the Jews? Nu, this is different how?

Not the Jews, not necessarily even Israel is every case, but the current government and more precisely their actions and policies. I do not equate Jew with Israel. Yes Israel is a predominantly Jewish state, but not all Jews are Israeli or want to be. Let's not get histrionic about everyone hating the Jews here. I don't hate Israel, but I think their current government and their policies are harmful to everyone, including themselves in the long run. I would also like to see Israel called to account for a few things like the Lavon Affair and not signing onto the IAEA or agreements not to use chemical and biological warfare.

[alsarg72]

What qualifies you to call bush an idiot. Are you an expert on American Politics? Have you done an in-depth study into the pros and cons of the Bush Administration?

The rest of the world thought Bush was a clown and he brought the US into disrepute. Let me guess winepusher, you're an avid Fox News watcher, yeah?

Under Bush the US was becoming not only a laughstock but a threat to world peace.

Yes, it was Bush who threatened World Peace. CAN YOU PROVIDE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THIS MISTY. People on here will not accept a claim without sufficent evidence to back it up. So, PROVIDE SOME SOURCES THAT SHOW BUSH WAS THREATENING WORLD PEACE OR RETRACT THAT CLAIM.[/winepusher]

"People on here will not accept a claim without sufficent evidence to back it up."

Who? Atheists? Christians accept claims without sufficient evidence in every thread on the site!

You say all sorts of baseless things in support of your Christianity without evidence, and then DEMAND evidence from others! Hysterical.

Obama is a much better president and hopefully he can keep the Christian right-wing nutters under their stones.

Of Course you europeans like Obama, he went on an apology tour across the world and called America Arrogant. Of course you think Obama is a better president, he doesn't promote American Exceptionalism.

Npw, unfortunatly America hasn't gone the way of socialist Europe, and that must upset you. The fact that Americans work hard for a living and don't get government checks every month must enrage you. Especially those right wing christian nutters. Tell me, what about those left wing secular nutters. The ones that protest the Global summitts, do you not have a problem with them Misty? Are you being hypocritical on this matter, because if you condemn political extremism, you must surely condemn it on both sides of the aisle.

Do you have a passport? How much travelling have you done? Your generalizations are about as smart as people saying all Republican voters in the US are Gun Carrying, Fundamentalist Christian, Creationist, Bush-Loving nutters. That wouldn't be fair or accurate now would it?

[thatoneguy]

I don't hate Jews, many British Jews are not in favour of the way Israel goes about its business.

Have you ever been to Israel? What about Gaza, or any other Middle Eastern country for that matter? You're statements seem far too self assured for someone so disconnected from the issue.

Simply put, the Arabs do not want reconciliation. They have made it painfully clear that they will not rest until Israel has been pushed into the sea. When past invasions have failed, they had resorted to civilian attacks. I don't know whether you lived near New York during 9/11, or had any experience with a terrorist attack, but it's not something that can be taken lightly.

I hate to take sides on issues like these, and I acknowledge there is probably a lot I do not know, but I have a hard time saying Israel is acting wrongly. I am very much sympathetic towards the civilians that have been hit by Israel's past actions, but I still believe Israel has largely done the right thing. Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Israel has a right to defend itself and a right to a state. It is hardly cut and dry. Israel has given up much of its land in the past and that's shown time and again to be insufficient.

I have a question for you misty. What do believe Israel should have done instead, knowing that there were weapons being delivered to Hamas on those ships?

Furthermore, instead of the establishment of Israel, what action do you think the UN should have taken instead? Bear in mind, Israel was established 3 years after the holocaust ended. It is largely believed that, had Israel existed, much of the holocaust's monstrosities could have been avoided. One of the biggest reasons for so many deaths during the holocaust was a lack of viable safe havens for refugees. Considering Hamas's stance regarding Israel, isn't it likely that the Israeli state is the only thing preventing another genocide?

[Misty]

Excuses, excuses that is all we hear from the supporters of Israel. The aid convoys were not carrying weapons for Hamas, nor is the latest aid ship.

It is a pity the Americans couldn't have created the State of Israel within their own borders, years of conflict would have been spared. The Brits should have stood firm against the Zionist terrorists. I feel we gave into them in the wake of the Holocaust, which of course was a disgusting blot on the 20th Century. The Israelis are treating Palestinians rather like Hitler treated the Jews. They kill innocents indiscriminately too.

[Goat]

Excuses, excuses that is all we hear from the supporters of Israel. The aid convoys were not carrying weapons for Hamas, nor is the latest aid ship.

It is a pity the Americans couldn't have created the State of Israel within their own borders, years of conflict would have been spared. The Brits should have stood firm against the Zionist terrorists. I feel we gave into them in the wake of the Holocaust, which of course was a disgusting blot on the 20th Century. The Israelis are treating Palestinians rather like Hitler treated the Jews. They kill innocents indiscriminately too.

I don't think you have answered certain of the objections.

The activists were trying to break a blockade that was put in place because Hamas was getting weapons from the sea. Let in 'aid' ships, you let in weapons. No exceptions.

The flotilla was given the option of landing in israel, and taking the aid to Palestine over land. They refused, insisting on breaking the blockade instead. That says that the motivation of the organizers was not aid. The organizers was a group that was show to have links to terroristrs organizations.

How about responding to those points rather than repeating over and over the emotional splurge you already said.?

And it wasn't the Americans who gave up land to create Israel. It was the British. They owned the territory that is now Israel, not the Americans. That area had not been independant of foreign rule in well over 2000 years.

[cnorman18]

Excuses, excuses that is all we hear from the supporters of Israel.

"Excuses"?

Perhaps your statements would be more credible if you would actually address my points, as well as those of others.

The aid convoys were not carrying weapons for Hamas, nor is the latest aid ship.

How do you know that? More importantly, how do the Israelis know that? Are the Israelis just to lift the blockade and allow uninspected shipments from an organization with a record for supporting and facilitating terrorism? That is called "suicide," and I don't think it's obligatory under international law for any nation, not even Israel.

It is a pity the Americans couldn't have created the State of Israel within their own borders, years of conflict would have been spared. The Brits should have stood firm against the Zionist terrorists.

Do you think Israel and the international community should stand firm against terrorism directed at Israeli civilians? You don't seem concerned about that at all. In fact, it would appear that you think that that is just fine, and the Israelis' fault for "occupying Arab land." Of course, if one knows a bit of actual history, one knows that Arab terrorism against Jews in the Mideast began long before the foundation of Israel, in fact before the 20th Century, let alone before 1967.

I feel we gave into them in the wake of the Holocaust, which of course was a disgusting blot on the 20th Century.

Hamas, Hizbollah, the PLO, Islamic Jihad, The Al-Aqsa Brigade, and Iran have all explicitly stated their intentions of perpetrating another Holocaust. All these are formally and publicly dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel and the expulsion or extermination of every Jew in the Middle East. How do you even TRY to make peace with people who are sworn to kill you and work at it every single day?

Why isn't the intransigence and murderous criminal behavior of these organizations a problem for you? Why do you focus only on the Israelis and ignore the daily provocations and attacks that motivate them and give them good reasons to do what they do?

If the Holocaust was a "disgusting blot," wouldn't it be good to direct a moment's thought to the prevention of the next one?

The Israelis are treating Palestinians rather like Hitler treated the Jews.

Oh, really?

Where are the death camps? Where are the sanctions against Arab businesses? Where are the locked labs where brutal and sadistic "medical experimentation" goes on (Israeli hospitals treat Arabs and Jews without distinction or preference, even after a terror attack.) Where are the trucks rounding up Arabs at gunpoint? Where are the yellow stars, the laws against marrying or doing business with Arabs, the ghettos that are locked and guarded 24-7 and deliberately starved? Hard to say the Israelis are starving the Gazans when Israeli trucks hauling food, water and medical supplies are rolling in there every day.

Did Hitler allow Jews to serve in the German government, the German legislature, and the German Army? Were Jews allowed to vote, own land, do business, and live freely and without harassment in Germany by 1945? Did the German Supreme Court uphold the rights of Jews? Did the Germans withdraw completely from Jewish areas and leave them to govern themselves? Did they provide food, medical supplies, medical care, and so on to the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto or other ghettos or camps? Did the Jews of Germany actually say in surveys that they preferred to live in Germany as opposed to any nation run by Jews? (Israeli Arabs have overwhelmingly stated that they prefer life in Israel to life in any Arab country. Maybe it's the freedom, of religion, the press, speech, for women, and like that. Only place in the ME that offers those - but of course, that should never have happened, right?)

If Hitler were running Israel and the Palestinians were Jews, Gaza and the West Bank would have been carpet-bombed, then annexed, in 1968. If the Jews were determined to wipe out the Palestinians, as some claim, then why is the Arab population in Israel itself expanding at a rate twice or three times that of the Jews? If we're trying to get rid of the Arabs, we're doing a lousy job.

Saying that Jews behave like Nazis is a gross insult and a deeply offensive slap in the face, as well as being factually indefensible, as I have briefly shown above. I doubt that you so intended it, but that kind of statement is, without apology or reticence, blatantly right-up-front antisemitic. If you're so concerned about peace and freedom, be more careful about your own provocative and offensive words.

They kill innocents indiscriminately too.

That is a blatant lie. The Israelis target known terrorists, and the Palestinians deliberately surround them with civilians and deliberately attack from civilian areas - schools, mosques, and so on. They store weapons in schools and mosques and hospitals. They smuggle weapons, bombs, and murderers in ambulances. Do you think that all that is accidental?

Here's a news flash; the Geneva Convention, which is so often cited in complaints about Israel (though usually speciously), actually DOES say that using civilians as human shields and attacking from civilian venues is a WAR CRIME.

That means that any civilian deaths of Palestinians caused by the Palestinian strategy of deliberately placing their own people in harm's way for propaganda purposes is the responsibility and fault of the Palestinian terrorists and those who support them, not of the Israelis. If you shoot at people and plant bombs and then hide in a crowd of children, you don't get to cry "Foul!" when your victims shoot back and inevitably kill the children that YOU deliberately placed in danger to protect yourself. Those deaths are on YOUR head, not the Israelis'.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, deliberately target innocent civilians from the get-go. Discos, pizzerias, weddings, bar mitzvahs, bus stops surrounded by pregnant women with strollers, primary schools, and school buses full of children - these are Hamas's carefully chosen targets. And Hizbollah's, and Islamic Jihad's, and the Al-Aqsa Brigade's, and the PLO's...

If you can't see a moral difference between these two sides, I don't think anyone can help you. From what you've written here, you are so focused on hatred - yes, hatred - for the Israelis that you can't see any problem with Israel's enemies, or at least not enough to actually think about doing anything about them. The only solutions I can see you proposing are (1) don't let the Israelis lift a finger to prevent the murder of Israeli civilians, or (2) abolish Israel. Funny, those are the same solutions preferred by the terrorists.

I don't think you're an antisemite; not yet. But you do keep saying things that I have heard primarily from the mouths of antisemites, chiefly in that you find no meaningful blame to attach to anyone but the Israelis, and you tacitly condone the mass murder of Israelis in that you simply have no concern about that issue at all. You are STILL saying that Israel should never have been founded, and you obviously know very little about how that actually happened in history. Equating the Israelis with the Nazis is another red flag to anyone, like myself, who has dealt with antisemitism extensively in the past.

Tell me, what is YOUR humanitarian solution to the Mideast crisis? Dissolve Israel and send all the Jews back to Europe and Russia - including those whose families have lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years? That's the stated goal of Hamas & Co. and the only thing that will satisfy them.

Tell us all how to negotiate with people who won't, and who have never kept a single commitment they have made, ever; and how to make peace with intractable, relentless murderers.

Fulminating against the evil Israelis may make you feel good, but you haven't addressed a single point I or anyone else has made. Maybe you'd care to try now.

[Misty]

Since Israel is now an established State, more's the pity, it can't be disestablished. However I hope UN puts pressure on its Government to behave in a civilised way. I have heard it said this week that Hilter was right to treat the Jews in the way he did, because they are evil. Now I totally and utterly condemn that way of thinking, but if Israel continues to defy world opinion, many more people might start thinking like that and innocent Jews, who have no connection with Israel, could suffer.

I don't think I have anymore to contribute on this topic, which raises my blood pressure considerably, so I will withdraw from the thread.

[cnorman18]

Since Israel is now an established State, more's the pity, it can't be disestablished. However I hope UN puts pressure on its Government to behave in a civilised way. I have heard it said this week that Hilter was right to treat the Jews in the way he did, because they are evil. Now I totally and utterly condemn that way of thinking, but if Israel continues to defy world opinion, many more people might start thinking like that and innocent Jews, who have no connection with Israel, could suffer.

I don't think I have anymore to contribute on this topic, which raises my blood pressure considerably, so I will withdraw from the thread.

Without responding to a single point, and after explicitly justifying the mass murder of civilians.

Thanks for the "debate."

[Solon]

cnorman, it looks like you have a couple different conversations going on in this thread alone, but I'd appreciate a response to my second post when you get the time.

[justifyothers]

It is a great pity Israel was allowed to exist, but as it does so it shouldn't act like the bully of the Middle East and encroach on other people's territory. Not all Jews support Israel by any means!

OOOOO that's a rough comment. I don't think it's a pity that any nation exists. I do think it's a pity that the entire middle east region is in a perpetually violent existence. They ALL act like 'bullies' and maniacs!

The dome in Jerusalem seems to be a hot spot too. Everybody wants it, and Isreal must constantly defend it - it's their land.

But, I disagree on the dispute with the Palestinians. If I'm not mistaken, the Gaza strip was actually legally theirs at one point. Both sides have valid arguments. It's just a shame that peace can't be acheived in this day. I mean, are grown people running these contries, or what?

There's too much "I deserve..." attitude from the leaders on down.