A Higher Being: Is It Logical?

Kuan · Post by **Kuan** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:55 am

Very simple question, almost impossible to answer.

Is it logical to believe in a higher being? If it is not a logical option, why?

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:36 pm

sleepyhead wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:Is it possible to 'tap into our physiology'?
Hello filthy tugboat,

Your the one who brought up physiology. Do you claim that bees know how to communicate with each other as a result of Physiology? If yes than why would the bee be able to obtain this information and not be able to obtain other needed information?

I never said that they obtained that information from their physiology, I said that it was an instinctive result of their physiology. Which is why I question the notion of 'tapping into' ones physiology.

sleepyhead · Post by **sleepyhead** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:48 pm

Filthy Tugboat wrote:I never said that they obtained that information from their physiology, I said that it was an instinctive result of their physiology. Which is why I question the notion of 'tapping into' ones physiology.

Hello filthy tugboat,

I'm sorry for mis quoting you. Let me rephrase my question then. If a bee obtains information on how to communicate with other bees through the instinctive result of their physiology, then is it possible that a bee could obtain other information through the instinctive result of their physiology?

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:54 am

sleepyhead wrote:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:I never said that they obtained that information from their physiology, I said that it was an instinctive result of their physiology. Which is why I question the notion of 'tapping into' ones physiology.
Hello filthy tugboat,

I'm sorry for mis quoting you. Let me rephrase my question then. If a bee obtains information on how to communicate with other bees through the instinctive result of their physiology, then is it possible that a bee could obtain other information through the instinctive result of their physiology?

Why do you propose that they obtain information from their physiology or other? If it is instinctive then it is less about obtaining or even using information and more about a reactive result of what they are. When trying to convey location and amount the bee behaves instinctively rather than consciously. It's like body language. Unless you have a more plausible explanation?

sleepyhead · Post by **sleepyhead** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:40 pm

Hello filthy tugboat,

We have discussed free will in other debates. From your response it appears that you don't believe bees have free will but are merely biological robots opperating on their instinct. I believe it is ultimately the decision of the bee whether he wants to tell the other members of his species where the honey is. This answer sounds more plausible to me.
I used to have a dog. We went on walks in the woods. He had a friend (another dog) who lived just up the road. When we walked by his house he would look down on us but wouldn't come down immediately to join us. My dog would go up to him in what appeared to me to be giving him a personal invite. So my dog went up the hill to where his friend was then both dogs would come down the hill and we'd all go on a walk. If the two dogs weren't friends I doubt that my dog would have invited him, therefore, it was achose on my dogs part rather than instinct.

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:26 am

sleepyhead wrote:Hello filthy tugboat,

We have discussed free will in other debates. From your response it appears that you don't believe bees have free will but are merely biological robots operating on their instinct. I believe it is ultimately the decision of the bee whether he wants to tell the other members of his species where the honey is. This answer sounds more plausible to me.

Well despite my feelings on the real concept of free-will as a whole, I will discuss this in relevant terms to the topic as I would not like to derail this thread.

This is going to be a lot of guesswork for me, so bare with me. As far as whether or not the bees have a choice about telling the other bees about the location of pollen and such, I suppose he can make the conscious choice not to tell them in which case he does not use his instinctive behavior of communication. The instinctive behavior I am talking about is the bees communication, not the bees will.

I suppose the other option would be that the bees instinctively seek out pollen and instinctively relay it to the hive, they very well could have no choice in the matter.

sleepyhead wrote:I used to have a dog. We went on walks in the woods. He had a friend (another dog) who lived just up the road. When we walked by his house he would look down on us but wouldn't come down immediately to join us. My dog would go up to him in what appeared to me to be giving him a personal invite. So my dog went up the hill to where his friend was then both dogs would come down the hill and we'd all go on a walk. If the two dogs weren't friends I doubt that my dog would have invited him, therefore, it was achose on my dogs part rather than instinct.

The choice being whether or not to invite the other dog, the instinct being how to communicate the invitation.

sleepyhead · Post by **sleepyhead** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:23 am

Hello filthy tugboat,

>>>This is going to be a lot of guesswork for me, so bare with me. <<<

This is getting somewhat complicated for me also.

>>>The instinctive behavior I am talking about is the bees communication, not the bees will. ...The choice being whether or not to invite the other dog, the instinct being how to communicate the invitation.<<<

Right. I'm willing to call this internal untaught knowledge "instinct".

Filthy Tugboat · Post by **Filthy Tugboat** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:31 am

sleepyhead wrote:Hello filthy tugboat,

>>>This is going to be a lot of guesswork for me, so bare with me. <<<

This is getting somewhat complicated for me also.

>>>The instinctive behavior I am talking about is the bees communication, not the bees will. ...The choice being whether or not to invite the other dog, the instinct being how to communicate the invitation.<<<

Right. I'm willing to call this internal untaught knowledge "instinct".

OK.

Prisoner of the Sun · Post by **Prisoner of the Sun** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:26 am

Filthy Tugboat wrote:This is going to be a lot of guesswork for me, so bare with me. As far as whether or not the bees have a choice about telling the other bees about the location of pollen and such, I suppose he can make the conscious choice not to tell them in which case he does not use his instinctive behavior of communication. The instinctive behavior I am talking about is the bees communication, not the bees will.

I suppose the other option would be that the bees instinctively seek out pollen and instinctively relay it to the hive, they very well could have no choice in the matter.

Hey, FT. I'm a pedant, and so is my GF (an entymologist). Almost all bees are female and therefore should be referred to as "she". Also, the bees have no choices as we humans would understand them. If a bee indicates the direction and distance of a food source by a "dance", all nearby bees haed for that food source. It is a conditioned reflex. Bees have approximately 20,000 neurons in their brains (we have 1000 times more in the the retina of one eye). There is no capacity for choice.

sleepyhead · Post by **sleepyhead** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:43 am

hello prisoner of the sun,

Do larger animals have more neurons? A long time ago there was a news story about a child falling into the gorilla cage at a zoo. One of the gorillas carried him to safety while the rest didn't do anything.

Ragna · Post by **Ragna** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:46 am

sleepyhead wrote:hello prisoner of the sun,

Do larger animals have more neurons? A long time ago there was a news story about a child falling into the gorilla cage at a zoo. One of the gorillas carried him to safety while the rest didn't do anything.

Until Prisoner of the Sun answers, hope you don't mind I give my opinion. Probably, if they have more cranial capacity they will have more space, more neurons and more synapses.

Gorillas are apes and therefore closely related to humans, so you shouldn't be surprised they show some similar behaviors and traits to humans. However, a bee cannot consciously make a choice.