Biblical Instructions versus Conservative Interpretation

[johnmarc]

I have been on this forum long enough to recognize that one of the staples here is, How can you believe/support an evil God? The proponent of this position continues to list the many negative attributes of God in the hope that the conservative Christian turns away.

I submit that this line of questioning is aimed squarely at the symptoms of the issue and not the cause. As a result an effective case cannot be made.

I further submit that the underlying factors that determine a literal interpretation of the Bible have little to do with the Bible. It has to do with conservatism itself. I have yet to find a conservative Christian who does not wholly believe and support what they find in the Bible---independent of the Bible. In other words, if the Bible did not exist, their beliefs would be the same.

They are foisting their own personal and deeply held positions and prejudices onto the Bible---not the other way around. With over one thousand interpretations of Christianity, it is easy to understand why this is so. The Bible becomes the mouthpiece (and the whipping boy) for positions that are read into the Bible. The Bible isnt changing Christians; Christians are changing the Bible.

If any of this is true, atheists are attacking the messenger---so to speak. The real target is conservatism itself. What is it about the worldview of conservative individuals that cause them to cherry pick through the Bible to confirm what they already believe? And in this present day and time there is much to choose, but dissing the Bible wont make a dent because none of this is about the Bible.

Question for Debate:

(A) Does the Bible mold Christians into followers of Jesus?

Or

(B) Do Christians manipulate the Bible into support for their pre-existing positions?

[Adamoriens]

I think we each understand the other's position better now. My persuasion is that liberalism is no truer to the original intent of the text than conservatives, even thematically. In any case, it appears that liberals appropriate the Bible's texts for their own (often political) ends, which is not objectionable so long as it remains morally benign, but it cannot claim, I think, that its conclusions are representative of the original ethical beliefs of the Bible's authors. In principle, then, the fact that conservatives appropriate biblical texts for their own ends is likewise acceptable, though their moral views can sometimes be morally repugnant. Then again, if their ethical beliefs are coextensive with the ethical beliefs of the Bible's authors, so much the worse for the Bible; it doesn't really matter where conservatives get their beliefs if the Bible has morally repugnant views anyway. And that's the nub of the matter.

But why think that the Bible is a particularly morally benign text? Why appropriate contextually ad-hoc views from such a volatile book in the first place? Is it simply a political move to retain the whiff of authority the Bible still holds in many modern cultures?

[ceastman]

This would seem to be the argument that Christianity is not endorsed by those who cannot live a Christian life. Never in my life have I believed that the Bible was the word of God and never in my life have I not lived morally, conservatively, respectfully, and fully within the bounds of good citizenship. Lots of folks with 'good behavior' are simply unable to reconcile the bias, contradiction, scientific error, and tribal pettiness that is within the Bible. It is not about behavior, it is about an ancient text bumping up against a modern world.

I believe that someone who accepts Jesus as their personal Savior does undergo a change, they are born again! The old is passed away and a new creature is born. Since then the Spirit of God dwells inside such a person their behavior should start to change and their views should be shaped by the Word of God. You can endorse a Christian life all you want but how can you live it if you are not a Christian. The word Christian means "Christ-like" and if you don't have Christ how can you live for Christ? Also, since you don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God what standard do you use to judge your "good behavior?" Is it what you think is good? What if someone thinks different than you? Which one of you is right? With the Bible we have an absolute standard that never changes. I believe the Bible takes 'good behavior' to a higher level. For example: murder is wrong but the Bible says that hate without a cause is equal to murder; adultery is wrong yet the Bible says that even looking upon a woman to lust after her is equal to adultery. Another problem arises in your argument about being good because according to the Bible, "There is none righteous (good), not even one." The only way for a person to become righteous is by accepting Jesus.

[ceastman]

Scripture must be viewed with a non-biased eye and we must honestly desire to understand the scripture.

Ceastman is wrong and you are correct. There are no unbiased eyes. Culture is invisible and cultural bias is almost impossible to shed. More than that, there is no God. How are we to determine Gods will, if there is no God? But the Bible might indeed from time to time express a closeness to the human ideal that is unique and original. This expression has endured for three thousand years and it has emancipated millions of people. As metaphor, the Exodus is a present day reality---it is not just another manipulation of the text.

If there is no God then why are we even discussing the scriptures? Does not the Bible clearly say in the very first verse that, "In the beginning God..."? So with biased eyes you have chosen to say that there is no God. Why? Just look at the Bible with open eyes and it will show you what you truly need. The Bible says, "That the truth will set you free." That would be the truth found in God alone. To say that the Bible is just a book of metaphors is just silly. The Bible has been proven to be accurate time and time again. It is more than metaphors it is a true historical book that reveals to man his Maker. 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' (Psalm 53:1a)

[Goat]

Scripture must be viewed with a non-biased eye and we must honestly desire to understand the scripture.

Ceastman is wrong and you are correct. There are no unbiased eyes. Culture is invisible and cultural bias is almost impossible to shed. More than that, there is no God. How are we to determine Gods will, if there is no God? But the Bible might indeed from time to time express a closeness to the human ideal that is unique and original. This expression has endured for three thousand years and it has emancipated millions of people. As metaphor, the Exodus is a present day reality---it is not just another manipulation of the text.

If there is no God then why are we even discussing the scriptures? Does not the Bible clearly say in the very first verse that, "In the beginning God..."? So with biased eyes you have chosen to say that there is no God. Why? Just look at the Bible with open eyes and it will show you what you truly need. The Bible says, "That the truth will set you free." That would be the truth found in God alone. To say that the Bible is just a book of metaphors is just silly. The Bible has been proven to be accurate time and time again. It is more than metaphors it is a true historical book that reveals to man his Maker. 'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' (Psalm 53:1a)

Now, the writer of Psalm 53 assumed there is a God, and decided that anybody that didn't believe the way he did was a fool. Now, using the scripture to prove scripture is known as 'circular reasoning'. Can you show that the scripture is accurate and true? Could it be to understand scripture is to understand the human condition, and the culture of the time period, and the actual scripture is not literal truth, but can explain a lot about the human psyche?

[johnmarc]

Could it be to understand scripture is to understand the human condition, and the culture of the time period, and the actual scripture is not literal truth, but can explain a lot about the human psyche?

Let me tweak this a bit:

To understand scripture is to understand the human condition and the culture of the time period. The Bible does not contain literal truth, but identifies the truth about human behaviors.

I feel like I am in church. Thank you Reverend Goat.

Note to moderators: There is nothing snide here---Goat won one.

[Peg]

(A) Does the Bible mold Christians into followers of Jesus?

Or

(B) Do Christians manipulate the Bible into support for their pre-existing positions?

most christians dont even read the bible, so the bible certainly doesnt mold them to a christian way of life

The bible has always been manipulated by certain individuals because those people know that the majority of christians dont read the bible so they wield the bible like a whip and make it say what they want for their own benefit. You see it on these sorts of forums especially in the political threads...many use the bible to push a particular political agenda or persuasion.

[johnmarc]

If there is no God then why are we even discussing the scriptures?

Because the Bible continues to have relevance.

Does not the Bible clearly say in the very first verse that, "In the beginning God..."?

Yes, People with a bias and a bent believed that God created the earth---flat as it was at the time.

So with biased eyes you have chosen to say that there is no God. Why?

I am persuaded by scientific methodology.

Just look at the Bible with open eyes and it will show you what you truly need.

But just try to get two different Bible readers to agree on what they really need.

The Bible says, "That the truth will set you free."

The truth will give you a headache. It says that also---look it up in the Book of Jeremiah.

That would be the truth found in God alone.

Would that be Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit?

To say that the Bible is just a book of metaphors is just silly.

To say that God created the world in six days is silly.

The Bible has been proven to be accurate time and time again.

That is why there is a thousand different Christianities competing with each other over accuracy in the texts?

It is more than metaphors it is a true historical book that reveals to man his Maker.

Since its historical accuracy has been doubted by every objective historical standard, it must be something else. I am going with metaphor.

'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.' (Psalm 53:1a)

Yes, I agree. The fool hath also said that the Seahawks were going to the Superbowl this year. You can't really trust fools. The problem is that some very intelligent and learned folk have also said that there is no God. I am listening to them.

[johnmarc]

I think we each understand the other's position better now. My persuasion is that liberalism is no truer to the original intent of the text than conservatives, even thematically.

This has been a productive conversation. I understand what you are saying and why---and I would agree with you except that I have had personal experiences with the text and with God that convince me that---while no being exists, a foundational understanding does exist and it is the foundational understanding of many of the Bibles original writers. I have many examples, but foremost among them is the Book of Job. I believe that it was divinely inspired and I believe that it is inclusive. Unfortunately, some of my deepest connections to the Bible are not admissible on this forum. But if you could wrest the Book of Job from me, we would be on the same side of this issue.

I will go out on a limb here and claim that Job knew that did not write about any actual event in which God intervened, but was writing, in a sense, a lengthy parable that resonates more closely to liberal religion than conservative religion.

But why think that the Bible is a particularly morally benign text? Why appropriate contextually ad-hoc views from such a volatile book in the first place? Is it simply a political move to retain the whiff of authority the Bible still holds in many modern cultures?

In liberal circles this has come up many, many (many) times. The feminists particularly want to jettison this text for something else. But the long and the short of it is that there is nothing else (save other world religions) The text is long enough and broad enough to encompass the whole of the human condition. The work of these extraordinary minds over a thousand years cannot be reproduced.

Liberal religion doesnt even want the whiff of Biblical authority. It is presently more like the suffocation of a Fundamentalist dog-pile. Because Fundamentalists define the terms, I claim not to believe in God. I do believe in God---just not the fundamentalist version. The minute that I say that I do believe in God, I become a fundamentalist.

There is a reason that the Jesus movement split from the Jewish movement and the Lutheran movement split from the Catholic movement and the Episcopal movement split from the Lutheran movement. Each could have started their own religion. But in each case, the text was kept. It is truly an extraordinary document---some would say sacred---and I would be one of those.

I cant get any more worked up over Gods impatience with His People than I can get worked up over Saurons atrocities in the Lord of the Rings---and for the same reason. I wish that we could appropriate the metaphors in the Lord of the Rings and build a new religion from it. But as good as it is, it is not good enough. The Bible perseveres for a reason.

As an aside, in my attempt to discredit the Bible, I fell in love with it. When literal was discredited, a whole world of Biblical imagery became available and useful. It has made an abundant difference in my life. It is difficult to share this connection to the Bible because Fundamentalists have defined the terms. Whether one is pro-Bible or anti-Bible, the conversation takes place in a Fundamentalist dialect. Joseph Campbell knows it best---one of the most damaging things that a culture can do is to literalize their myths.

[ceastman]

Yes, I agree. The fool hath also said that the Seahawks were going to the Superbowl this year. You can't really trust fools. The problem is that some very intelligent and learned folk have also said that there is no God. I am listening to them.

Why listen to men who have limited knowledge? God is all-wise and all-knowing! My belief is not found in myself or some other men my belief is in Jesus who provides a way back to God the Father.

1Corinthians 1:20 - 29 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

I will put my trust in an all-knowing, infinite God over a finite man!

[johnmarc]

1Corinthians 1:20 - 29 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Proverbs 4:7

Getting wisdom is the wisest thing you can do! And whatever else you do, develop good judgment.

I Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

New Living Translation