Does anyone actually believe the story of Noah's Ark?
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Does anyone actually believe the story of Noah's Ark?
Post #1I know a bunch of Christians, and so many of them believe that Noah's Ark is a myth. Basically just a story to teach morals and lessons. I personally see a lot of things wrong with the story of the flood. So I was wondering, if anyone believes the story of Noah's Ark, and the world flood, to be the truth?
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #31
Topaz27 wrote: How would so many plants survive under water for that long?
HOW COULD PLANT LIFE SURVIVE SO LONG UNDER WATER?
- The bible account does not indicate entire earth was underwater for a year. After 150 days (about 5 months) the ark ran aground so there may well have been areas where the leaves of some tress were above water after a relatively short period. Some species of plants can tolerate waterlogged ground for several months when dormant. Dormant shoots with resting buds, dormant bulbs, tubers, corms and stolons would probably have survived in the flood waters, or been carried on floating masses or debris and Noah would likely have carried a variety of plants and seeds safely through the flood.
- Given the right conditions plants will, sprout relatively quickly. The dove returned with a leaf 120 days (about 4 months) after the ark ran around which is certainly sufficient time for new plant life to emerge.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Post #32
Jehovah's Witness:
Ok I'll plays devil's advocate for a second. Let's say that a meteorite, which has never been described in the Bible, crashed into Earth and caused major tectonic changes to occur. (Note that in your next post you talk about how no one can really know what happened in the past.) Can we still agree that the oceans would still be diluted due to the massive amounts of fresh water from both undersea cavern, as well as rain? And therefore would've influenced the marine life at the time.
While you are right about the scientist, possibly, not getting the timeline correct. How likely is that?
With the vegetation, I have to disagree. While you're correct some plants would survive, that's not my argument. Most plants would die. We have an absolutely massive amount of different species of plants on our planet. How would Noah, be able to obtain all of the different kinds in some way, (sapling, seed, or whatever), and then keep them in living conditions?
Most plants would die within a month if their foliage in covered.
https://www.nativelanddesign.com/blog/t ... ape-plants
"Some species can survive standing in several feet of water for months, but if their foliage is completely covered they can die in as quickly as one month. In fact, very few species can tolerate more than one month of complete submersion."
Also, my whole point is that the dove was never sent out in the first place.
Finally my point about Nu'u is quite interesting in my opinion. It was in my last post to brianbbs67.
Eloi:
Just because Jesus thought it was true, doesn't mean it is true.
Ok I'll plays devil's advocate for a second. Let's say that a meteorite, which has never been described in the Bible, crashed into Earth and caused major tectonic changes to occur. (Note that in your next post you talk about how no one can really know what happened in the past.) Can we still agree that the oceans would still be diluted due to the massive amounts of fresh water from both undersea cavern, as well as rain? And therefore would've influenced the marine life at the time.
While you are right about the scientist, possibly, not getting the timeline correct. How likely is that?
With the vegetation, I have to disagree. While you're correct some plants would survive, that's not my argument. Most plants would die. We have an absolutely massive amount of different species of plants on our planet. How would Noah, be able to obtain all of the different kinds in some way, (sapling, seed, or whatever), and then keep them in living conditions?
Most plants would die within a month if their foliage in covered.
https://www.nativelanddesign.com/blog/t ... ape-plants
"Some species can survive standing in several feet of water for months, but if their foliage is completely covered they can die in as quickly as one month. In fact, very few species can tolerate more than one month of complete submersion."
Also, my whole point is that the dove was never sent out in the first place.
Finally my point about Nu'u is quite interesting in my opinion. It was in my last post to brianbbs67.
Eloi:
Just because Jesus thought it was true, doesn't mean it is true.
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Eloi
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Post #33
If Jesus took the story as true, that should be enough for a follower of Jesus. In your first post you were talking about some "Christians" who don't believe in the story.
Can anyone be a real follower of Jesus Christ and not believe in something he has confirmed as true?
Can anyone be a real follower of Jesus Christ and not believe in something he has confirmed as true?
Re: Does anyone actually believe the story of Noah's Ark?
Post #34I am personally utterly fascinated with the scripture, and in pondering how it came into existence, why the author might had written it, what was their motive, what was their intention, etc....Topaz27 wrote: I know a bunch of Christians, and so many of them believe that Noah's Ark is a myth. Basically just a story to teach morals and lessons. I personally see a lot of things wrong with the story of the flood. So I was wondering, if anyone believes the story of Noah's Ark, and the world flood, to be the truth?
I think that it is pretty well established in history that the Tribes of Israel, and the nation of Israel exists. I mean i believe that the Temple of Solomon was likely historical, that David was likely historical. Israel, its laws, its families bloodlines, its wars, were likely historical...
But the further it goes back, the more unsure i am of how it came into existence... Genesis 10 shows signs of historical value, in listing tribes and nations around the world. And im starting to believe the Garden of Eden even has historical value.
for example, this is my quote in another thread
This is what the Bible says in John (Where the "Word" is from the Greek word "Logos").
Quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Which is interesting, itst it? The "word", or human communication would be a very important aspect of historical documentation..
And if we take the story of Adam and Eve, it is about humans coming into consciousness, and gaining knowledge... That is what the Tree of "knowledge of Good and Evil", has also been translated as, the "Tree of Consciousness"..
And isnt it funny that sources say:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-begin ... AR05WRxiJa...Quote:
What is the beginning of human history?
In terms of world history, recorded history is first seen in accounts of the ancient world, around the 4th millenium BC. This coincides with the invention of writing.....
Marking that about 6000 years ago, when history began with the word.
And, isnt it funny that, that Genesis names the rivers going through the Garden of Eden, that are now known in Southern Mesopotamia modern day Iraq.
And that:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... ADS9GzT9OF...[Where did human history begin?]
"Early civilizations arose first in Lower Mesopotamia (3000 BCE)..."..
"Whether in prehistoric or historic times, people always needed to be near reliable sources of potable water. Settlements developed on river banks as early as 3000 BCE in Mesopotamia"
(History of the world)
I am beginning to think even the story of the garden of Eden may have some kind of historical value as well..
Im starting to think the word goes back all the way to the beginning... But it's funny because Hebrew was a Semitic language... Did it go all the way back?
I mean they have a family lineage all the way back, perhaps that was the beginning of documentation, writing down names?
I think it is likely that the story of Noah's flood came after they started writing down parts of the Torah before hand... So perhaps Noahs flood has some kind of truth? But it is very hard to believe that Noah, for example, gathered all animals on earth, male and female, and built a big enough Ark to carry it... But perhaps the story was of a smaller flood? Or soemthing to that nature?
I just dont know... However i do believe God has the power to will destiny, but was their a flood? I just dont know
Post #35
Eloi:
I somewhat agree. There is a possibility that Jesus was wrong, and it never happened. But if you truly believe that Jesus is God/son of God, wouldn't he know if the story of Noah's Ark was true? Now the next question, can the story of the Ark, as described in the Bible, be true. And the next after that would be, Jesus truly was the God/son of God. But that's a whole different can of worms.
Tart:
I agree history and religion are fascinating to me as well. If I remember correctly a lot of scholar's believe that one of the humans first started writing was for counting things. Mainly for agriculture I think.
I do personally believe a flood happened in Mesopotamia. That's where I think the story comes from. But I don't think it was a world flood. I mean how would that know? They didn't even know places like Antartica, Australia, and America existed! Then again, a lot of ancient cultures have flood stories, just with different characters in different places. We don't quite know if they happened at the same time though.
History is truly mysterious, and fascinating.
I somewhat agree. There is a possibility that Jesus was wrong, and it never happened. But if you truly believe that Jesus is God/son of God, wouldn't he know if the story of Noah's Ark was true? Now the next question, can the story of the Ark, as described in the Bible, be true. And the next after that would be, Jesus truly was the God/son of God. But that's a whole different can of worms.
Tart:
I agree history and religion are fascinating to me as well. If I remember correctly a lot of scholar's believe that one of the humans first started writing was for counting things. Mainly for agriculture I think.
I do personally believe a flood happened in Mesopotamia. That's where I think the story comes from. But I don't think it was a world flood. I mean how would that know? They didn't even know places like Antartica, Australia, and America existed! Then again, a lot of ancient cultures have flood stories, just with different characters in different places. We don't quite know if they happened at the same time though.
History is truly mysterious, and fascinating.
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Eloi
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Post #36
For a Christian, there is not the slightest possibility that Jesus Christ could have been wrong, regardless of the idea that any Christian has about who Jesus is. The word "Christian" designates a follower of Jesus, and that implies believing in what he taught and believed.
Jesus believed in the account of Genesis:
Mat. 24:37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
Why should any Christian have any doubt about it?
Jesus believed in the account of Genesis:
Mat. 24:37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
Why should any Christian have any doubt about it?
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Tcg
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Post #37
[Replying to post 36 by Eloi]
I'm not sure that it is a compelling argument, but some have argued that Jesus might have been referring to a figurative story. That fact that he mentions it in this passage doesn't require one to accept he took it as a literal event.
As an example, one could refer to Huck Finn to illustrate a point. That doesn't mean the speaker is considering the story of Huck literally true.
Tcg
I'm not sure that it is a compelling argument, but some have argued that Jesus might have been referring to a figurative story. That fact that he mentions it in this passage doesn't require one to accept he took it as a literal event.
As an example, one could refer to Huck Finn to illustrate a point. That doesn't mean the speaker is considering the story of Huck literally true.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Eloi
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Post #38
This is what Jesus said:
Mat. 24:37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
It means exactly what it means: he took the account as literal as it is written in the Hebrew Scriptures.
For a Christian, Jesus was in heaven before becoming a human, so he is not only talking about something he read, but something that he saw; that is why he knew how people were living before the waters of the Flood fell. Those details were not in the account in Genesis; he saw everything.
Mat. 24:37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
It means exactly what it means: he took the account as literal as it is written in the Hebrew Scriptures.
For a Christian, Jesus was in heaven before becoming a human, so he is not only talking about something he read, but something that he saw; that is why he knew how people were living before the waters of the Flood fell. Those details were not in the account in Genesis; he saw everything.
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Tcg
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Post #39
[Replying to post 38 by Eloi]
Nothing here requires this to be taken as a literal event. It could be a reference to a figurative tale as Jesus did with parables.
One could say, for instance, that just as Huck and Jim floated down the Mississippi river, we must take time to relax and enjoy where life takes us. This doesn't require one to consider that the speaker considers Huck's adventure to be a literal event.
Tcg
Nothing here requires this to be taken as a literal event. It could be a reference to a figurative tale as Jesus did with parables.
One could say, for instance, that just as Huck and Jim floated down the Mississippi river, we must take time to relax and enjoy where life takes us. This doesn't require one to consider that the speaker considers Huck's adventure to be a literal event.
Tcg
Last edited by Tcg on Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Eloi
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Post #40
[Replying to Tcg]
I don't think so, but you can take it as you wish ...
Not only Jesus talked about Noah and the Flood.
Heb.11:7By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that results from faith.
1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noahs day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
2 Pet. 2:4Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarta-rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people.
Noah and his children were included in the biblical genealogies, which would not have been if they had been fictional or mythological characters.
1 Chron. 1:1Adam,
Seth,
Enosh,
2Kenan,
Ma-hala-lel,
Jared,
3Enoch,
Me-thuse-lah,
Lamech,
4Noah,
Shem, Ham and Japheth.
Luk. 3:35[son] of Serug,
[son] of Reu,
[son] of Peleg,
[son] of Eber,
[son] of Shelah,
36[son] of Ca-inan,
[son] of Ar-pachshad,
[son] of Shem,
[son] of Noah,
[son] of Lamech,
37[son] of Me-thuse-lah,
[son] of Enoch,
[son] of Jared,
[son] of Ma-hala-le-el,
[son] of Ca-inan,
38[son] of Enosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God.
Through Isaiah Jehovah mentioned the event:
Is. 54:9This is just as the days of Noah to me. Just as I have sworn that the waters of Noah shall no more pass over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not become indignant toward you nor rebuke you. 10For the mountains themselves may be removed, and the very hills may stagger, but my loving-kindness itself will not be removed from you, nor will my covenant of peace itself stagger, Jehovah, the One having mercy upon you, has said.
... and through Ezekiel:
Eze. 14:12And the word of Jehovah continued to come to me, saying: 13Son of man, as regards a land, in case it commits sin against me in acting unfaithfully, I will also stretch out my hand against it and break for it the rods around which ring-shaped loaves are suspended, and I will send upon it famine and cut off from it earthling man and domestic animal. 14And had these three men proved to be in the midst of it, Noah, Daniel and Job, they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
No matter what Jesus said or how, would you believe him? In your view, how should he have said it to be taken as a real event? Or how many times should Scripture talk about the matter to make it seem like a real event TO YOU?
I don't think so, but you can take it as you wish ...
Not only Jesus talked about Noah and the Flood.
Heb.11:7By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that results from faith.
1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noahs day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
2 Pet. 2:4Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarta-rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people.
Noah and his children were included in the biblical genealogies, which would not have been if they had been fictional or mythological characters.
1 Chron. 1:1Adam,
Seth,
Enosh,
2Kenan,
Ma-hala-lel,
Jared,
3Enoch,
Me-thuse-lah,
Lamech,
4Noah,
Shem, Ham and Japheth.
Luk. 3:35[son] of Serug,
[son] of Reu,
[son] of Peleg,
[son] of Eber,
[son] of Shelah,
36[son] of Ca-inan,
[son] of Ar-pachshad,
[son] of Shem,
[son] of Noah,
[son] of Lamech,
37[son] of Me-thuse-lah,
[son] of Enoch,
[son] of Jared,
[son] of Ma-hala-le-el,
[son] of Ca-inan,
38[son] of Enosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God.
Through Isaiah Jehovah mentioned the event:
Is. 54:9This is just as the days of Noah to me. Just as I have sworn that the waters of Noah shall no more pass over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not become indignant toward you nor rebuke you. 10For the mountains themselves may be removed, and the very hills may stagger, but my loving-kindness itself will not be removed from you, nor will my covenant of peace itself stagger, Jehovah, the One having mercy upon you, has said.
... and through Ezekiel:
Eze. 14:12And the word of Jehovah continued to come to me, saying: 13Son of man, as regards a land, in case it commits sin against me in acting unfaithfully, I will also stretch out my hand against it and break for it the rods around which ring-shaped loaves are suspended, and I will send upon it famine and cut off from it earthling man and domestic animal. 14And had these three men proved to be in the midst of it, Noah, Daniel and Job, they themselves because of their righteousness would deliver their soul, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
No matter what Jesus said or how, would you believe him? In your view, how should he have said it to be taken as a real event? Or how many times should Scripture talk about the matter to make it seem like a real event TO YOU?
