The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[PinSeeker]

There is no "hidden meaning," certainly.

Agreed. There is no doubt the word thousand(s) are mentioned often in scripture.

Fantastic. But "thousand" doesn't always indicate a hard number equal to nine hundred ninety-nine plus one, but rather all, the full amount, regardless of actual number, as demonstrated. And such is the case regarding 144-thousand ~ which is also a multiple of both 10 and 12, which are also numbers used in Scripture to symbolize completeness ~ of Revelation 7.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that in the case of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, it is to be taken literally.

Well, we all believe it's to be taken literally. Symbolism is indicative of the literal. But the problem ~ the error, in the reading of Revelation 7 and Revelation as a whole ~ is literalism.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[Eloi]

I find it funny that the biblical reasons why the number 144000 should be considered literal have been mentioned, and yet there are people who want to experiment with factors to give it a personal interpretation without even commenting on those given biblical reasons.

Does the fact that 12 is a biblical number with special meaning mean that the territorial tribes of Israel were not 12, or that neither were the apostles? Was the year 7 a metaphorical and symbolic number, and the year 49 for the sabbatical years and the following Jubilee year, just because 7 is a biblical number with a meaning?

When there are biblical reasons (as in the case of 144000), you have to be reasonable and stop speculating with symbolism, or otherwise, you are leaving a door unnecessarily open for everyone to believe that they can give the meaning they want to the numbers in the Bible ... as they do in Christendom with images in visions. Do some of you really care about the explanations that the Bible itself gives, or are you just trying to come up with a personal theology?

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The number 144000:

1) is mentioned more than once in Revelation referring to the same group (Rev. 7:4; 14:1,3)

2) the Bible describes it as "the number of those who were sealed" (Gr .: τον αριθμον των εσφραγισμενων) in Rev 7:4;

3) when contrasted with the great crowd, it is necessarily indicated that it is a definite, well-determined number (Rev. 7: 4-10) contrasting the other crowd;

4) in Rev.14: 4 it is said that they were "bought from among mankind as firstfruits", and that implies that it is a limited selection or quantity (compare with the expression "little flock" in Luke 12:32);

5) only this group is considered as "priests and kings" (Rev. 1:5,6; 5:9,10; 20:4-6; Luke 12:32; 22:28-30). It is incongruous to think that in the total people who serve God, all are kings or all are priests, since these services are performed by a minority over a majority ... Just as in Israel, not all the Israelites were members of the group of priests who served in the tabernacle or the temple of Jehovah, which was only allowed to the Levites. Even some priestly functions only belonged to the descendants of Aaron, and others were exclusive functions of the High Priest (Heb. 5:4-6) ;

6) when in Revelation 6:11 the already dead are told that they should wait a little longer, they are told how long: "until the number was filled (gr .: πληρωθωσιν which is to reach a fullness or become complete) of their fellow slaves and their brothers".

7) In the NT there are indications that Jehovah's servants prior to Jesus are not part of the covenant that was made with the future kings of the kingdom (Matt. 11:11; 1 Pet. 1:10-12). That covenant was validated with the death of Jesus Christ (Luke 22:20,28,29). Obviously, the rest of God's servants who are not part of that covenant will be resurrected on earth and will live alongside the great crowd that will survive the end of this system of things.

[PinSeeker]

I never fail to find quite astounding the inability and/or refusal to recognize and read Revelation for the literature genre that it is (apocalyptic)... And to see contrasts where there is quite the opposite, at least at times... But, God's Word never returns to Him empty or void; it always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent.

Grace and peace to all.

[Eloi]

Revelation has visions as much as Daniel does. Who would consider a book as totally simbolic just because it includes visions in its content?

The "Thousand years" in Revelation is as literal as it is the number 144000 ... But I guess that is content for another topic.

[PinSeeker]

Revelation has visions as much as Daniel does.

Absolutely. Daniel contains quite a bit of apocalyptic imagery. Not quite like Revelation, consists nearly entirely of such, but sure.

Who would consider a book as totally symbolic just because it includes visions in its content?

No, it's content and the context of any particular thing within determine that.

The "Thousand years" in Revelation is as literal as it is the number 144000 ... But I guess that is content for another topic.

Like I said, just because something is symbolic does not mean it is not indicative of literal truths, but it is quite in error to take things meant to symbolize real things as woodenly literal themselves. But many do, and they are welcome to their opinions, as are we all.

Grace and peace to you.

[Eloi]

As I said before: there are enough biblical reasons to consider the number of 144000 "kings and priests" who will live with Jesus on heaven as a literal number. You are talking about an "apocalyptic style" ... and what is your point? Do you mean that is any reason to consider everything in Revelation as symbolic?

Do you consider the 1000 years those 144000 will be kings over the future paradise as symbolic (Rev. 20:4) ? Is it symbolic the vision Daniel had about the "the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One" getting the kingdom from Jehovah, besides Jesus himself (Dan. 7:13,14,21,22,27) ?

[myth-one.com]

Some comments about the 144,000 as gleaned from the Bible. I'm not sure if these comments reflect the theology of any Christian denominations.
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In Revelation 7, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (144,000) are sealed (protected) and consecrated to God:

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These verses only describe the 144,000 being selected and sealed. They are mentioned again in Revelation 14:

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

This "hints" as to the purpose of the 144,000.

The general mission of the Church is to spread the Gospel to all the world:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Indeed, this event must occur before the end can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

But the Gospel is sealed from mankinds understanding:

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot for it is sealed: (Isaiah 29:11)

Is the Gospel even sealed from the Church? Afterall, the Church is part of mankind. Gospel means the good news of Christ and His teachings in the scriptures. Part of this good news is not that most humans will suffer in hellfire for eternity! This would definitely not be good news. Therefore, most churches do not even know the true gospel!

Returning to Revelation chapter 14: The 144,000 hear a singular voice from heaven and they are the only ones who understand it -- "and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth" (Verse 3).

What is this voice which only they understand? It is the voice of the angel in verse six who is spreading the gospel to all the world (in RED above).

The understanding of these 144,000 are opened so that they can understanding the angel in verse 6. Even the twelve apostles did not understand the scriptures until Jesus opened their understanding shortly before ascending into heaven:

Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:45)

But for what purpose is the sealed gospel good news made known to the 144,000?

Soon after this event, the first resurrection for mankind will occur. Only deceased Christians will be resurrected at this first resurrection:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Christians resurrected at the first resurrection will spend the millennium with Christ:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)

One purpose of the millennium is training of those resurrected as they will have duties and responsibilities after the millennium. One of these responsibilities will be judging:

Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... (I Corinthians 6:3)

But another duty will be education. We shall "preach" the true Gospel good news to vast multitude of nonbelievers resurrected at the second resurrection:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

But as most Christians did not even know the true good news during their lifetime, how can we teach it to others? The answer is that the 144,000 to whom it was given to understand the scriptures will preach it to us during the millennium. We will then preach it to the masses from the second resurrection:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

The one angel sent to spread the message, spreads it to a small group of 144,000. They spread it to a much larger group during the millennium, and they spread it to the largest group after they millennium.

Note that the 144,000 are all men. This implies that they might very well be used in preaching or teaching situations as these are to be filled only by men:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)

Note that none of these verses say anything about the 144,000 ruling the earth! All born again Christians will participate in that:

...we shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

[Eloi]

What you said there is not implied in what you quote from the Bible. Interestingly you just said: "most Christians did not even know the true good news during their lifetime, how can we teach it to others?" ... Obviously, you are not sure of what you say about the 144000 and the future kingdom of God. Christendom does not know, but it is because you do not listen the message ... For example:

1) the 144000 are not listening any song but they are singing it;

2) there are not only resurrected persons on Earth in the Millenium. There are also survivors to the Great Tribulation ... and they'd been approved to pass there without damage.

3) Some passages in the Bible show that 144000 is just a small part of the loyal ones, not all of them (Matt. 25:31-46).

[PinSeeker]

As I said before: there are enough biblical reasons to consider the number of 144000 "kings and priests"...

Yes, no argument with this, in and of itself; we are a royal priesthood now, as Peter says in 1 Peter 2.

...who will live with Jesus on heaven as a literal number.

Hm. A couple of things here:

Jesus, of course, will only be in heaven "for a little while," but then he will come back, and never are we told that after He comes back, He will at any point go away again, even into heaven. For our part (Christians), none of us ever leaves, except to go out and meet Him and usher Him in when He returns. And even after the Judgment, only those on Jesus's left leaves (are sent away).

Revelation itself ~ chapter 21 ~ tells us that the holy city comes down to us. So heaven and earth are one. So there is no separation any longer.

As I said before, the number 144,000 can and should be taken literally, but not woodenly so. It is indicative of ~ pointing to ~ the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-14. Revelation is a prophecy, as we are told in Revelation 1:3, and as is the case with all prophecies in the Bible, each thing spoken of has an immediate fulfillment and an ultimate fulfillment. Revelation 7 does precisely that. Verses 1-8 describe the immediate fulfillment, and verses 9-14 the ultimate. Revelation 14:1-5 is very much parallel to Revelation 7:1-8.

You are talking about an "apocalyptic style" ... and what is your point? Do you mean that is any reason to consider everything in Revelation as symbolic?

I get the rhetorical nature of your question, but, well, I'll just say that if something is symbolic, it is necessarily representative of something very real, but not that something itself.

Do you consider the 1000 years those 144000 will be kings over the future paradise as symbolic (Rev. 20:4)?

Ah! The millennium. There are several different views/understandings of what that "thousand years" is, Eloi, you know that. I do not agree (although not a total disagreement) with the pre-tribulation, pre-millennialist group of which you are a part. I do not agree with the post-millennial view, either, although my understanding and theirs are a bit closer together. And I do not agree with the preterist camp, either, although, again, there are some things we would agree on. Yes, I believe the "thousand years" to be representative of the time in which God's people on earth are "troubled" ~ go through trials and tribulations, all of which, as James (1:2-4) says, we should count as joy because the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, that we may, in the fullness of God's time, be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing) ~ and God builds His kingdom by saving all of Israel, which consists of Jew and Gentile alike, His elect, people from every tongue, tribe, and nation (Paul, Romans 9-11, Ephesians 2:11-22). And that will be brought to completion at the Day of Christ (Paul, Philippians 1:6), because it is God who works in us (Christians), so that we will both will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So, yes, the use of "thousand" in Revelation 20 is very much the same as, oh, say, "the cattle on a thousand hills" of Psalm 50:17, or the "thousand (who) shall flee at the threat of one (or) five... till (they) are left like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain, like a signal on a hill... (whom) the LORD waits to be gracious to... and therefore exalts Himself to show mercy to... (f)or the LORD is a God of justice... (and) blessed are all those who wait for Him" (Isaiah 30:17-18).

Well, uh... that was quite a mouthful... But fun to write...

Is it symbolic the vision Daniel had about the "the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One" getting the kingdom from Jehovah, besides Jesus himself (Dan. 7:13,14,21,22,27)?

I would say much the same here as regarding Revelation 20 above. Yeah, the same mouthful.

I loved this Endgame moment:





Grace and peace to you, Eloi.

[Eloi]

(...) we are a royal priesthood now, as Peter says in 1 Peter 2. (...)

You ... and who else?

Peter is not talking to all his modern readers.