Is the Christian world view really one of hope?

[TruthSeeker1]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

[OnceConvinced]

It's still not a choice to go to hell. What you are trying to do is relieve God of the burden of responsibility for our executions.

I've seen people choosing to stay in a hell on earth. Haven't you? What's the difference?

Only because they see no other choice.

This is God's judgment: "You can ruin yourself, if you so choose." Using emotive terms like 'execution' doesn't help the discussion.

You may not like that term, but let's face it that's what hell is. It's an execution. (Well if you believe that's the end of life, then it is)

You either heading for home, or you're leaving home.

Or you're just camping outside the house.
But for me it's not that. I have a home, it's just none of the places you mentioned.

"He who is not for me is against me."

This is just straight out paranoia. I am neither for nor against God. I'm just not convinced he even exists anymore.

Suppose a mother says to her child, "If you don't drink, you'll die of thirst." Is that a threat?

It is if that mother set the foundation that not drinking water would cause you to die of thirst.

Does an unrepentant heroin addict leap into that particular hell? Does he choose to stay there? If you drag him out by force, will he be cured?

A heroin addict can be cured by force. And then he'd probably be grateful afterwards, once he's been made to go cold turkey.

Anyway, your example is extreme and insulting. It assumes that a non-believer is so stupid that they would deliberately try to destroy their lives. Most non-believers are simply people who doubt the remarkable claims the bible makes. They're not deliberately trying to rile up God, they're not deliberately trying to destroy their lives.

God has decreed that there is a place called "drug addiction" where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God made that place so that he would have somewhere to send those who chose to reject him.

He will cast you into that evil place if you make certain choices.

In other words a threat.

Can you escape this evil place called "addiction"? Yes. If you repent of your sins. ie. If you get off the heroin.

Can you escape from hell? Yes. If you repent of your sins.

Now if you can escape from hell, then that's fine, it's a punishment. But most Christians do not believe hell is a place you can escape from. It's the final act, there's nothing more afterwards.

What happens once the punishment is over? Do they get to enter Heaven? What makes you so sure people won't want to leave? Is there any biblical evidence for any of your assumptions here?

[McCulloch]

One really good reason for His apparent silence would be His non-existence. Why not take that as a working hypothesis until you find a better explanation?

Because it's ugly as sin, and I love beauty. The no-God 'hypothesis' is literally hopeless in the end.

Isn't that a bit like saying, "I won't believe that because I don't like it." There is a vast difference between wishful thinking and truth. Your belief, sorry, your fervent hope, for a God and a rewarding afterlife seems to be along the lines of wishful thinking.

[Confused]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope. But it essentially renders mankind moot. It offers an end to life as we know it to exist. Where is there any hope for mankinds existence here?

Consider how much man has had to overcome to claim and hold on to the title of the supreme "creation". Under religious doctrine, our struggle means nothing. Why? Because man didn't overcome anything. Rather, God did with man as His tool. And we are suppose to be at the top of the food chain? We, mere humans, are suppose to be the superior species? Why? Consider the great white shark. If it manages to survive a decade it is conisdered robust and is credited with its ability to survive. Man cannot have such a claim under religious doctrine. We need a God to give us strength to overcome our adversities. Man has no future in religious doctrine. Only God does. How is that not blatantly obvious? (sarcasm implied in some sentences here, obviously)

[katiej49]

Christians on this site and elsewhere continually preach the idea that the Christian religion is one of hope. Many go so far as to say that those who are not Christian have no hope, only with the Christian viewpoint can one have a hopeful life.

The Christian has to accept that while he may be "saved", many others including non-believing family members and friends are destined for an eternity of torment. Does it really bring more "hope" for Christians to know that a few will enjoy eternal bliss while billions of others including most of the world's impoverished will be eternally tortured?

The question for debate: Is it really honest to call the Christian belief system one of hope?

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope. But it essentially renders mankind moot.


how are we rendered moot if we are eternal sons and daughters of Almighty God? a God who rejoices over us with singing it says....


It offers an end to life as we know it to exist. Where is there any hope for mankinds existence here?


life as we know it DOES end when we die. our hope here is that we have hope for THERE.....for heaven. knowing your future is secure you are free to live it up here! we can enjoy His creation, care for it and others.....all is well

Consider how much man has had to overcome to claim and hold on to the title of the supreme "creation". Under religious doctrine, our struggle means nothing. Why? Because man didn't overcome anything. Rather, God did with man as His tool. And we are suppose to be at the top of the food chain? We, mere humans, are suppose to be the superior species? Why? Consider the great white shark. If it manages to survive a decade it is conisdered robust and is credited with its ability to survive. Man cannot have such a claim under religious doctrine. We need a God to give us strength to overcome our adversities. Man has no future in religious doctrine. Only God does. How is that not blatantly obvious? (sarcasm implied in some sentences here, obviously)

we are not the main point .... but we not pond scum either (borrowed comment from some author, i forget who)......God is Sovereign....we were created for Him and for His pleasure...and He loves us incredibly....it goes against our human pride to say "God is the main thing"...but He is. and realizing that makes us the most fulfilled. We are made in His image, loved beyond our wildest dreams.....and eternal.....we are ETERNAL.......changes everything to believe this truth

[katiej49]

Nobody chooses to walk the road to hell. They simply choose not to believe in biblical salvation.

No difference. Heaven is facing towards God. Hell is facing away.

It's still not a choice to go to hell. What you are trying to do is relieve God of the burden of responsibility for our executions.

If you punish your child you don't say "Well Johnny, you did the bad thing so that means you wanted me to punish you." We all know that Johnny didn't want to be punished. Punishment is a consequence, not a choice.

Your logic that by us rejecting God we are choosing a particular road is just plain wrong. Imagine this scenario:

Jack: When I grow up, I want to be a truck driver.
Frank: But Jack, you can't. When you grow up, you have to be a fireman.
Jack: I don't want to be a fireman.
Frank: But you have to. If you don't be a fireman, then you have to be a policeman. It's one or the other.



what if Jack was born to be a fireman and Frank know this (cause Frank knows best, he knows things little Jack doesnt) ........what if Jack would only be peaceful, fulfilled and eternally happy if he were a fireman, and to become a policeman would destroy him....Jack doesnt get it, but Frank is wiser than Jack....what if this is the case? would Frank be doing him a favor to let him be a cop?

[Confused]

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope. But it essentially renders mankind moot.

how are we rendered moot if we are eternal sons and daughters of Almighty God? a God who rejoices over us with singing it says....

A God who wins in the end. Not man. Perspectives?

It offers an end to life as we know it to exist. Where is there any hope for mankinds existence here?

life as we know it DOES end when we die. our hope here is that we have hope for THERE.....for heaven. knowing your future is secure you are free to live it up here! we can enjoy His creation, care for it and others.....all is well

No, our life ends. Life in general carries on. Under religious doctrine, life ends with only God carrying on. Mankind doesn't.

Consider how much man has had to overcome to claim and hold on to the title of the supreme "creation". Under religious doctrine, our struggle means nothing. Why? Because man didn't overcome anything. Rather, God did with man as His tool. And we are suppose to be at the top of the food chain? We, mere humans, are suppose to be the superior species? Why? Consider the great white shark. If it manages to survive a decade it is conisdered robust and is credited with its ability to survive. Man cannot have such a claim under religious doctrine. We need a God to give us strength to overcome our adversities. Man has no future in religious doctrine. Only God does. How is that not blatantly obvious? (sarcasm implied in some sentences here, obviously)

we are not the main point .... but we not pond scum either (borrowed comment from some author, i forget who)......God is Sovereign....we were created for Him and for His pleasure...and He loves us incredibly....it goes against our human pride to say "God is the main thing"...but He is. and realizing that makes us the most fulfilled. We are made in His image, loved beyond our wildest dreams.....and eternal.....we are ETERNAL.......changes everything to believe this truth

Based on scripture, pond scum is greater than us. We cannot do anything without the grace of God to do it for us. "There, but for the grace of God go I", "It was only by the grace of God they survived", "I can do all things with Christ as my strength". See the point of these statements. Pond scum can survive on its own. Man cannot.

God is sovereign? He loves us? Sure. Maybe beyond your wildest dreams. Mine are a bit more complex. You hit one thing on the head though. God is the main thing to God. Not man. We are mere playing pieces to further religious doctrine.

[OnceConvinced]

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope.

You have it in one Confused! I found out from experience (30+ years) that it was simply an illusion of hope.

[OnceConvinced]

what if Jack was born to be a fireman and Frank know this (cause Frank knows best, he knows things little Jack doesnt) ........what if Jack would only be peaceful, fulfilled and eternally happy if he were a fireman, and to become a policeman would destroy him....Jack doesnt get it, but Frank is wiser than Jack....what if this is the case? would Frank be doing him a favor to let him be a cop?

That doesn't really tie in with the analogy I have given. My point in the analogy is that Frank is claiming there are only two possibilities and there can't be any other. I'm simply trying to point out how it is unfair and unreasonable to the point of being absurd. ("If you aren't for me, you're against me".)

The thing about your scenario Katie, is that Frank is actually the one who is going to destroy Jack if he becomes a policeman. In reality Jack will probably actually be quite happy as a policeman and live a satisfying life, but it's simply Frank who's against it - He demands conformity to his will.

[katiej49]

I think it may offer the individual an illusion of hope. But it essentially renders mankind moot.

how are we rendered moot if we are eternal sons and daughters of Almighty God? a God who rejoices over us with singing it says....

A God who wins in the end. Not man. Perspectives?

wins what?

It offers an end to life as we know it to exist. Where is there any hope for mankinds existence here?

life as we know it DOES end when we die. our hope here is that we have hope for THERE.....for heaven. knowing your future is secure you are free to live it up here! we can enjoy His creation, care for it and others.....all is well

No, our life ends. Life in general carries on. Under religious doctrine, life ends with only God carrying on. Mankind doesn't.

Consider how much man has had to overcome to claim and hold on to the title of the supreme "creation". Under religious doctrine, our struggle means nothing. Why? Because man didn't overcome anything. Rather, God did with man as His tool. And we are suppose to be at the top of the food chain? We, mere humans, are suppose to be the superior species? Why? Consider the great white shark. If it manages to survive a decade it is conisdered robust and is credited with its ability to survive. Man cannot have such a claim under religious doctrine. We need a God to give us strength to overcome our adversities. Man has no future in religious doctrine. Only God does. How is that not blatantly obvious? (sarcasm implied in some sentences here, obviously)

we are not the main point .... but we not pond scum either (borrowed comment from some author, i forget who)......God is Sovereign....we were created for Him and for His pleasure...and He loves us incredibly....it goes against our human pride to say "God is the main thing"...but He is. and realizing that makes us the most fulfilled. We are made in His image, loved beyond our wildest dreams.....and eternal.....we are ETERNAL.......changes everything to believe this truth

Based on scripture, pond scum is greater than us. We cannot do anything without the grace of God to do it for us. "There, but for the grace of God go I", "It was only by the grace of God they survived", "I can do all things with Christ as my strength". See the point of these statements. Pond scum can survive on its own. Man cannot.

who want to survive on their own? not me....i like a Helper, a Daddy, a...King who considers me His daughter. wouldnt you?

God is sovereign? He loves us? Sure. Maybe beyond your wildest dreams. Mine are a bit more complex. You hit one thing on the head though. God is the main thing to God. Not man. We are mere playing pieces to further religious doctrine.

"for I know the plans I have for you confused, plans to prosper and not harm you, to give you a future, and a hope" Jeremiah 29:ll......!!!!!...............

[allansmith]

Only because they see no other choice.

People make real choices and must face real consequences.

You may not like that term, but let's face it that's what hell is. It's an execution. (Well if you believe that's the end of life, then it is)

It's more like never-ending suicide.

Or you're just camping outside the house.
But for me it's not that. I have a home, it's just none of the places you mentioned.

If God is absolute, in the end, there can be no half-measures.

This is just straight out paranoia. I am neither for nor against God. I'm just not convinced he even exists anymore.

I'm not convinced either, but I am convinced that a good God is the only thing worth hoping for in the end, and so I live my life accordingly.

Given that you don't know, why act as if God doesn't exist? It makes no sense. If you're not sure of the wind, set your sail anyway. But if you don't, it's your choice. You must bear the consequences.

It is if that mother set the foundation that not drinking water would cause you to die of thirst.

It's telling the truth, not making a threat.

A heroin addict can be cured by force. And then he'd probably be grateful afterwards, once he's been made to go cold turkey.

I hope you're right. If hell is going cold-turkey, many might come to their sense. Maybe even all. There are hints of this, you know. "Christ shall be All in All." ie. In the end, he'll be everything to everyone.

Anyway, your example is extreme and insulting. It assumes that a non-believer is so stupid that they would deliberately try to destroy their lives. Most non-believers are simply people who doubt the remarkable claims the bible makes. They're not deliberately trying to rile up God, they're not deliberately trying to destroy their lives.

Look. Repent of your sins, right now. Determine to love God with all your being. No? Not interested? If God exists, your rejection of this offer is utterly, lamentably stupid, a free and deliberate choice that sets in motion the destruction of your life.

God made that place so that he would have somewhere to send those who chose to reject him.

Addiction, like hell, is a just consequence of certain choices.

He will cast you into that evil place if you make certain choices.

In other words a threat.

No. A truth. A threat is "Do that, and I'll thump you." A truth is "Jump, and you will fall."

Now if you can escape from hell, then that's fine, it's a punishment. But most Christians do not believe hell is a place you can escape from. It's the final act, there's nothing more afterwards.

Purgatory. The outskirts of hell.

What happens once the punishment is over? Do they get to enter Heaven? What makes you so sure people won't want to leave? Is there any biblical evidence for any of your assumptions here?

I think people in heaven know evil for what it is, and reject it. There's no more chance of a Saint sinning than of you eating a bowl of dog's vomit.