Does God make us sin?

[cfiott]

Does God allow us the freedom to live the life we want or does he manipulate us into doing right or wrong as he deems fit for whatever purposes he might have? The following passage from Exodus strikes me quite negatively:
Ex. 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
Ex. 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
From this it is easy to deduce that Pharaoh failed to give in to God's (Moses's) demands not out of his own free will but because God had conditioned him (hardened his heart) to act that way. God could have decided to soften Pharaoh's heart and the Jews would have left Egypt in peace. Instead God decided to prove how powerful he is by creating a villain, punishing untold numbers of innocent people, and causing all the horrible disasters that followed.
Are we responsible for our sins, or is God "hardening our hearts"?

[Beto]

God does need evil here or He would not allow it.

You would think. But, if "God" needs "Evil", it would follow that he can't blame people for choosing "Evil" over "Good". So why bother at all with what "God" may want or not, like or dislike? It's ultimately irrelevant and pointless.

Under what logic can "God" need "Evil", and then hold Humanity accountable, even in the slightest, for choosing it?

Our morasl sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil. We would not want to lose evil because of this.

God does not blame people for following their God given souls and natures.
God does not lose any souls.

Even those we see as evil willl eventually get to heaven.
Even Hitler, who only used the same genocidal tools that God did will be there. Strange but true if God is to maintain His perfect works.

Regards
DL

Again, why waste a single second of our lives thinking about what "God" wants?

Because we set the standard for God. He in our image, we in His.

I don't know what question that is supposed to answer, but it definitely isn't mine.

God is a philosophy. The word.

We all follow a philosophy of some kind. We all follow a God of some kind.
You cannot help but think of your God as you go through life.

1. "God" is a philosophy.

2. We all follow a philosophy.

Only your "peculiar" system of logic will conclude we all follow "God".

A liberal, concervative, democrat or republican, Allah and whatever other name God wants to use. We all follow a God.

Oh, that settles it than.

EDIT: If you reserve yourself the right to call my philosophy "God", I reserve myself the right to call yours a "delusion".

[Greatest I Am]

God does need evil here or He would not allow it.

You would think. But, if "God" needs "Evil", it would follow that he can't blame people for choosing "Evil" over "Good". So why bother at all with what "God" may want or not, like or dislike? It's ultimately irrelevant and pointless.

Under what logic can "God" need "Evil", and then hold Humanity accountable, even in the slightest, for choosing it?

Our morasl sense comes from the knowledge of good and evil. We would not want to lose evil because of this.

God does not blame people for following their God given souls and natures.
God does not lose any souls.

Even those we see as evil willl eventually get to heaven.
Even Hitler, who only used the same genocidal tools that God did will be there. Strange but true if God is to maintain His perfect works.

Regards
DL

Again, why waste a single second of our lives thinking about what "God" wants?

Because we set the standard for God. He in our image, we in His.

I don't know what question that is supposed to answer, but it definitely isn't mine.

God is a philosophy. The word.

We all follow a philosophy of some kind. We all follow a God of some kind.
You cannot help but think of your God as you go through life.

1. "God" is a philosophy.

2. We all follow a philosophy.

Only your "peculiar" system of logic will conclude we all follow "God".

A liberal, concervative, democrat or republican, Allah and whatever other name God wants to use. We all follow a God.

Oh, that settles it than.

EDIT: If you reserve yourself the right to call my philosophy "God", I reserve myself the right to call yours a "delusion".

Both philosophy and religion try to show a way of living. Too bad if you can't see the similarities.

Regards
DL

[Jerada Davidhefter]

Both philosophy and religion try to show a way of living. Too bad if you can't see the similarities.

Regards
DL

Good DL, you seem to be missing the key differential between religion and philosophy. Philosophy offers guidance on how to live one's life. Religion demands one follow its doctrines or else one burns in some damned place for all of eternity. Also, religion gains indecent amounts of power and influence, whilst philosophy persuades from the sidelines of politics.

[McCulloch]

Both philosophy and religion try to show a way of living. Too bad if you can't see the similarities.

Philosophers try to convince you of the truth of their positions by reason and logic.
Religionists try to convince you of the truth of their positions in spite of reason and logic.

[Greatest I Am]

Both philosophy and religion try to show a way of living. Too bad if you can't see the similarities.

Regards
DL

Good DL, you seem to be missing the key differential between religion and philosophy. Philosophy offers guidance on how to live one's life. Religion demands one follow its doctrines or else one burns in some damned place for all of eternity. Also, religion gains indecent amounts of power and influence, whilst philosophy persuades from the sidelines of politics.

God is the word-philosophy-, or God is an entity pushing a philosophy.
same thing to me.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

Both philosophy and religion try to show a way of living. Too bad if you can't see the similarities.

Philosophers try to convince you of the truth of their positions by reason and logic.
Religionists try to convince you of the truth of their positions in spite of reason and logic.

Some, like myself, do rely on logic to show validaty of scripture. No talking snakes in my philosophy at all.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

Some, like myself, do rely on logic to show validity of scripture. No talking snakes in my philosophy at all.

I apologize. My sweeping general statement ignored those religionists who wisely accept at least some aspects of reality. However, how is your concept of God any more supported by evidence, reason and logic than talking snakes?

[FinalEnigma]

Does God allow us the freedom to live the life we want or does he manipulate us into doing right or wrong as he deems fit for whatever purposes he might have?

Exodus 10 18-20

18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. 19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10 27

27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11 9, 10

9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

God deliberately 'hardened Pharaoh's heart', forcing him to not let the people go, so that he could have an excuse to spread his miracles throughout Egypt.
The bible says so itself.

[Greatest I Am]

Some, like myself, do rely on logic to show validity of scripture. No talking snakes in my philosophy at all.

I apologize. My sweeping general statement ignored those religionists who wisely accept at least some aspects of reality. However, how is your concept of God any more supported by evidence, reason and logic than talking snakes?

Logic supports itself.

I believe that there is no phisical evidence to support a God unless you recognize the perfection of the systems that God has put in place. If you do then nothing else is required.

If you do not then the only way to prove God is to -be in the spirit- and communicate with God.

This is in our language telepathy.

Few believe that even this is a reality. It is. It works.

Few believe that we can be -in the spirit-, and yet they believe scripture that was writen by those who admit to being in the spirit when revelation was given.

How to reason with such???

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

Does God allow us the freedom to live the life we want or does he manipulate us into doing right or wrong as he deems fit for whatever purposes he might have?

Exodus 10 18-20

18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. 19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10 27

27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11 9, 10

9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

God deliberately 'hardened Pharaoh's heart', forcing him to not let the people go, so that he could have an excuse to spread his miracles throughout Egypt.
The bible says so itself.

You cannot read the Bible literally unless you want to believe in talking snakes.

God does not kill humans. Not a fair fight and not what a loving God does.

God, the law maker, cannot be seen as one who would break His own laws.

Regards
DL