Does belief in your God require a sacrifice?

[daedalus 2.0]

McCulloch was debating with a typical Xian and mentioned that Jesus required a sacrifice to live the life He prescribed.

Oddly, Xian's often use Pascal's Wager to justify their belief. (So do Muslims and Hindu's, btw)

The thing is, if Jesus required a sacrifice, and people use Pascals Wager, then they believe they are sacrificing something to believe in something they can only explain as "faith".

If they are sacrificing something, then they are losing something in this life for something undefined and unverifiable later. Now, I remember being Xian and thinking "Oh, no, I'm not losing, I'm gaining something in this life, too! The companionship of Jesus!"

Of course, this was religious bs, but moreso, it wasn't sacrificing, then, was it!

It was a calculated effort to gain something in this life and "the next". So what was I sacrificing?


OK, so the others will say: you aren't required to sacrifice, Jesus did it for you....

Well, not true. As a Xian (or other religionist) you are required to live a certain way: no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc. Of course, we all make sacrifices (personally, I refrain from bad logic as my "faith" prescribes, oh, and I don't kill because my "religion" thinks it really uncool.).

I make the sacrifices because I know it will be better for me and society. A Religionist, presumably, does it to find favor: they do it selfishly.

So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?

[OnceConvinced]

Yes

Huh? What? (Sorry I edited my post at the last moment. I double checked and Exodus goes into sacrificial laws).

So you seem to be contradicting yourself now. One moment you say that sacrifice was only needed before the law now you're saying it's needed along with the law? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

[Word_Swordsman]

McCulloch was debating with a typical Xian and mentioned that Jesus required a sacrifice to live the life He prescribed......Of course, this was religious bs, but moreso, it wasn't sacrificing, then, was it!

In Matthew 9:13 Jesus quoted from Hosea that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Jesus told the hearers to go learn the true meaning of that. Jesus also never contradicted such commandments, never on record calling on followers to sacrifice anything. As a proper Jew, the rabbi Jesus was personally responsible for completing all the Mosaic ordinances, actually once for all forever in the doing of those things, including all the proscribed sacrifices, feasts, etc. There remained no more need of any sacrifice after Jesus became the final accepted sacrifice God the Father demanded.

It was a calculated effort to gain something in this life and "the next". So what was I sacrificing?

OK, so the others will say: you aren't required to sacrifice, Jesus did it for you....

Well, not true. As a Xian (or other religionist) you are required to live a certain way: no pork, no pre-marital sex, no sin, no lusting, no killing, etc. Of course, we all make sacrifices (personally, I refrain from bad logic as my "faith" prescribes, oh, and I don't kill because my "religion" thinks it really uncool.).

I make the sacrifices because I know it will be better for me and society. A Religionist, presumably, does it to find favor: they do it selfishly.

So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?

To "sacrifice" is to hand over something valuable, maybe even vital for existence, as part of an act of worship, in a state of appreciation for benefits derived from a god. I doubt God would appreciate anyone continually offering up pork, passing opportunities for sex outside marriage to God, handing sin off to Him, etc.. If a person is in Christ, there remains no more sin to his account because he is washed clean and has no sin to "sacrifice", not being a person any longer spending night and day looking for another sin to commit. Jesus' blood was accepted at the heavenly altar, Christ died once for all. There simply is no more sacrifice that is at all regarded by God.

Perhaps what you regard as sacrifices are simply the results of a "New Man" operating within you, a born again spirit man that has come alive toward God and has a new "nature" to want to just be like Jesus, to emulate His righteousness which is declared to be in you as a believer. Knowledge from the Word awakens the soul to appreciate what it really means to be a "fellow heir" with Christ. Instead of sacrificing you avoid doing the things you know are contrary to the will of God, replacing those with acts of righteousness, increasingly as you develop in Christ. No longer a sinner (one who seeks to sin), you live as a saint in training according to how much Word takes root in you.

[daedalus 2.0]

To "sacrifice" is to hand over something valuable, maybe even vital for existence, as part of an act of worship, in a state of appreciation for benefits derived from a god.

So, why is Jesus's execution considered a sacrifice? Jesus was the Son of God - he was never going to die - he had eternal life.

The common soldier in Iraq sacrifices more than Jesus could ever do.

[InTheFlesh]

Yes

Huh? What? (Sorry I edited my post at the last moment. I double checked and Exodus goes into sacrificial laws).

So you seem to be contradicting yourself now. One moment you say that sacrifice was only needed before the law now you're saying it's needed along with the law? Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

I was pointing out that the knowledge of the sacrifice of Christ was prior to the law. I never said that sacrifice was ONLY needed before the law. Yes, there was sacrificing during the law, but I was sharing that Abraham was before Moses (law). And Abraham told Isaic that God would provide himself a lamb. Abraham knew that it was God who would do the work of salvation. God revealed to Adam and Eve that it was the blood of Christ that saved them from their sins.

[OnceConvinced]

Welcome to the site Word_Swordsman. A good answer to the OP there. When I was a Christian I would have agreed with your whole-heartedly. Hope you hang around and continue to debate with us.

I was pointing out that the knowledge of the sacrifice of Christ was prior to the law. I never said that sacrifice was ONLY needed before the law. Yes, there was sacrificing during the law, but I was sharing that Abraham was before Moses (law). And Abraham told Isaic that God would provide himself a lamb. Abraham knew that it was God who would do the work of salvation. God revealed to Adam and Eve that it was the blood of Christ that saved them from their sins.

Ah ok, fair enough.

[Ilias Ahmad]

So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?

Sacrificing something for the sake of Allah is an act of worship. There are many times when we will have to sacrifice something dear to us for the sake of Allah, and this is an act of devotion and worship. However, one must ensure that one's sacrifice is in accordance with the guidelines of Islam and not a bidah (innovation in religion). Innovation is what made the Jews and Christians go astray because they invented new forms of worship which their Prophets never taught. For example of innovation of monostacism, being secluded in a monastery and never marrying. Many Christians think they are undertaking this sacrifice to please God, but in reality God has never commanded this, but rather this is an innovation in worship and leads to deviation rather than closeness to God. A true sacrifice is in accordance with the clearcut guidelines of Allah's revelations. For example fasting, undertaking a pilgrimage to Makka, giving charity, etc., all examples of sacrifices that are pleasing to Allah and which have a foundation in the religion.

[Word_Swordsman]

So, what is the sacrifice? And if none, why prescribe a way to live in a religion in the first place?

Sacrificing something for the sake of Allah is an act of worship. There are many times when we will have to sacrifice something dear to us for the sake of Allah, and this is an act of devotion and worship. However, one must ensure that one's sacrifice is in accordance with the guidelines of Islam and not a bidah (innovation in religion). Innovation is what made the Jews and Christians go astray because they invented new forms of worship which their Prophets never taught. For example of innovation of monostacism, being secluded in a monastery and never marrying. Many Christians think they are undertaking this sacrifice to please God, but in reality God has never commanded this, but rather this is an innovation in worship and leads to deviation rather than closeness to God. A true sacrifice is in accordance with the clearcut guidelines of Allah's revelations. For example fasting, undertaking a pilgrimage to Makka, giving charity, etc., all examples of sacrifices that are pleasing to Allah and which have a foundation in the religion.

Excellent observations! I would point out all of Christendom does not agree with male only/female only seclusion in a monastery or other scenario, particularly the notion of monks never marrying, and obviously that practice has led to hedonistic behavior among too many of those men. They are in biblical error. The first man and woman were commanded to procreate as Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve in later deviances of behavior. There can be no value whatsoever to such a lifestyle "sacrifice", the only ultimate receiver of such a giving being Satan. Not all, but many Christians and Jews, like Muslims, seek to be guided by the commands of holy scriptures, while like many Muslims remaining largely ignorant of what the Bible or your Koran actually teaches.

I will have to disagree that carrying out scriptural commands falls into the area of sacrifice. Sacrifice is not a synonym of obedience. One cannot present as a gift the matter of simple obedience. If one obeys something like a law that act often is merely one of submission to a power one cannot overcome. One may have no choice but to obey a law, and might have an internal argument with the law giver over it. In that case obeying the law could never be yielding up something of value as an act of worship.

We Christians have behind us the one final sacrifice God demanded and accepted. In turn, knowing we, out of great appreciation for what Jesus did for us, do desire to sacrifice something, even though nothing we can give in worship is of equal or greater value than that act of Jesus. So it is the scriptures declare the person "in Christ" is to yield up a living sacrifice, our entire being, while allowed to retain ourselves, using our beings to live each day. Just having "Christ in us, our hope of glory" is regarded by God as a giving of ourselves to that truth, counted as a sacrifice.

Sacrifice goes all the way back to Abel and Cain, each bringing offerings to worship God. Abel's involved the shedding of blood, an animal yielding its life, it's owner yielding that life, and that body. That animal represented something given while alive, while Cain's offering was of dead substance, of little value to him or God since Cain would have retained the larger source of that grain far greater in substance than what was yielded up, keeping behind him a field of life and a tiny commitment towards God. Abel gave a personal high price while Cain gave something cheap and common without blood, something already dead. The blood indicated a commitment that reached out of life into death with no return to life. There remained no seed in the offered animal.

Sacrifice must be valuable for a receiver to regard it as a sacrifice. Once God is pleased with it, the process of true worship is established. Once He is finally satisfied with an ultimate sacrifice, he no longer needs a sacrifice in subsequent efforts of man to worship. Our Bible then declares God prefers obedience and mercy over sacrifice. He is now pleased through those acts, accepting worship from all who obey Him and have mercy.

[Word_Swordsman]

So, why is Jesus's execution considered a sacrifice? Jesus was the Son of God - he was never going to die - he had eternal life.

The common soldier in Iraq sacrifices more than Jesus could ever do.

When Abram raised the knife to carry out what he understood as a requirement from God to sacrifice his only begotten son, that man established on earth an event God would be compelled to carry out towards His only begotten son, Jesus, by His own words. Abram set the standard per God's instructions, so God then stepped into the event at Calvary. God prevented Abram from finalizing that sacrifice, saving the actual completion for the event between the Father God and Jesus His Son. Abram was directed to replace his son with another sacrifice, that of the ram caught in the bush. While God gave His Son, He allowed men to substitute from then on until Calvary by using certain animals in worship scenarios. That was permitted as a looking to the future event when that final accepted sacrifice was completed, that blood accepted by the holy God in heaven.Once done God no longer required spilling of animal blood, or of any man, to satisfy His demand for what was needed to cover the issue of sin.

Jesus was God in the flesh, having laid aside His privilege in heaven, being born a man on earth, subject to the law of Moses, to finish what Abram initiated. As a man he was obviously subject to death as all men are. The difference is that Jesus submitted to death, while men have no choice but to once die in the flesh. It was necessary that a pure holy man on earth submit willingly to death of the flesh, a contradiction of true justice, an event that man did not deserve. Even his blood line was not of Adam whose blood was cursed through sin. He came by the seed of the woman, not of a man, escaping the de jure curse of death on all men having the blood of Adam. The highest of justice prevented Jesus from carrying the burden of all mankind's sin load in hell forever as any man not in Christ will do eternally. Jesus was then permitted to leave hell, leave the sin burden behind in the upper part called Paradise, leading a host of other departed saints back up through their graves. appearing to many witnesses. He was "sprung" from a prison designed for sinners. Since Jesus took upon Himself all sin of men it was unjust to punish Him for sin.

No scriptures says Jesus would never die in the flesh, but it does declare He is eternal. For that matter all men are eternal beings, destined to spend the greater part of eternity with or apart from God.

I am a veteran, and I know lots of veterans. I listen to returning vets telling about Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, and few of them endured much more than searing desert heat, wearing heavy equipment, getting sore feet, and doing without an Arbys sandwich. I would say billions of souls around the world complain of such hardships too. Most soldiers never fire a round from a weapon except in practice, most return home unscathed in the military fields. Some pay the ultimate price, like Jesus did, but all will live forever beyond their graves.

[centauri]

[quote="Word_Swordsman]

...Abram set the standard per God's instructions, so God then stepped into the event at Calvary.

According to the instructions from God as laid down in the "Old" Testament, where are humans on the list of animals approved of as sacrifices for sin?

Jesus was God in the flesh, having laid aside His privilege in heaven, being born a man on earth, subject to the law of Moses, to finish what Abram initiated.

Jesus claimed to have a God, even after he was ascended.
According to God's definitions of himself, he is not a man nor a son of man.

Even his blood line was not of Adam whose blood was cursed through sin. He came by the seed of the woman, not of a man, escaping the de jure curse of death on all men having the blood of Adam.

Both Adam and Eve "sinned" and it was Eve that sinned first.
Women are just as capable of passing on a "blood" curse as men are.

The highest of justice prevented Jesus from carrying the burden of all mankind's sin load in hell forever as any man not in Christ will do eternally. Jesus was then permitted to leave hell, leave the sin burden behind in the upper part called Paradise, leading a host of other departed saints back up through their graves. appearing to many witnesses. He was "sprung" from a prison designed for sinners. Since Jesus took upon Himself all sin of men it was unjust to punish Him for sin.

Justice is relative.
According to God's instructions, each person saves themselves, there is no one size fits all human sacrifice that they must believe in.

[Word_Swordsman]

[quote="Word_Swordsman]

...Abram set the standard per God's instructions, so God then stepped into the event at Calvary.

According to the instructions from God as laid down in the "Old" Testament, where are humans on the list of animals approved of as sacrifices for sin?

God never included man in any list of animals. He separated the two classes of creation by creating animals one day, man another. When God told Abram to yield up his son, God approved of a sacrifice of one man. Issac was not sacrificed, replaced by a ram. The only man sacrificed with God's approval was God's only begotten son, Jesus.

Jesus was God in the flesh, having laid aside His privilege in heaven, being born a man on earth, subject to the law of Moses, to finish what Abram initiated.

]quote]Jesus claimed to have a God, even after he was ascended.
According to God's definitions of himself, he is not a man nor a son of man.

Jesus said the Father was "in" Him, and He was "in" the Father. Yet, the Father spoke over Jesus from heaven, while Jesus stood in the water. Indeed, neither the Father God nor the Holy Spirit ever became a human like Jesus did, and neither were of man. The only relationship of man is that man was made after the image and likeness of the triune Godhead.

Even his blood line was not of Adam whose blood was cursed through sin. He came by the seed of the woman, not of a man, escaping the de jure curse of death on all men having the blood of Adam.

Both Adam and Eve "sinned" and it was Eve that sinned first.
Women are just as capable of passing on a "blood" curse as men are.

The law of the tree was given to Adam, so he had no excuse. His violation was both a transgression and a sin. The woman was beguiled. From then on the weight of the sin was placed on Adam by God, though the woman would acquire limited punishment in child-bearing but with a promise of a final victory over sin through the seed of the woman.

The highest of justice prevented Jesus from carrying the burden of all mankind's sin load in hell forever as any man not in Christ will do eternally. Jesus was then permitted to leave hell, leave the sin burden behind in the upper part called Paradise, leading a host of other departed saints back up through their graves. appearing to many witnesses. He was "sprung" from a prison designed for sinners. Since Jesus took upon Himself all sin of men it was unjust to punish Him for sin.

Justice is relative.
According to God's instructions, each person saves themselves, there is no one size fits all human sacrifice that they must believe in.

Gods' justice is obviously higher than mans' concept. There are no instructions in the Bible for anyone to save himself, except some misguided advice from Job's friends. God was wise to report their folly. A parable popular in India puts the role of religion this way. Two related women were to give birth to a son each the same day. Their midwife died immediately, and one son died, with no witness as to which mother he belonged to. One day their young child was playing at the edge of the forest when one of his mothers looked out to see a tiger prowling near the child. The child had no idea of the danger. The woman ran outside crying "Save yourself, run as fast as you can to me, for the tiger will eat you." The child then froze up with fear, unable to respond. The woman stood in the doorway repeating her cry. The other woman heard the alarm. When she saw the child's plight she immediately ran silently to the scene of danger. Instead of snatching up the child, his true mother ran to intercept the charging tiger, giving her own life for the child.

The first woman represents a religion of man. Religion requires a person to follow instructions to save oneself. The other woman represents the true love of God to save us while yet sinners.